S&B headstamp 2017


#1

Find of the day. Not seen before but just standard training ammunition.


#2

Sorry, totally out of topic,

But, I am just curious, what Belgian police use as service ammo and training ammo?

Cheers,
Like9


#3

That depends. Local departments can make their own choice. In my department, we shoot S&B on training. Our service weapons are loaded with Speer Gold Dot +P. Our “neighbours” use MEN PEP 2.0 and PTP 2.0.


#4

Thank you duqjans.

The French police and Gendarmerie nationale also use Speer Gold Dot +P.

It’s interesting how despite of truly European “original designs” - such as solid copper Action 4/5, SeCa, PEP, EP2, EMB - more and more European law enforcement agencies choose American cartridges.

I read somewhere that the Belgian Federal police uses the FNB EP2, a solid copper Belgian made design by FN Herstal. Not sure if it’s still actual, though.

Cheers,
Like9


#5

Duqjans, is it maybe possible you take pictures from your Gold Dot +P duty round?
Do you have the 124-gr.+P version with product code 53617?


#6

Box and bullet, you’re welcome. Some reservation for the headstamp as there was recently a new delivery. I’ll have to check that out.


European police duty ammo
#7

Thank you duqjans.

It’s the law enforcement box, same as in the USA.

Furthermore, since when do you have Gold Dots in your department?
And, more precisely, since when the Belgian police is allowed to use “expanding” ammunition in duty?
I still thought you were using FMJ.

Cheers,
Like9


#8

Gold Dot? At least ten years, I think. Before that I remember Winchester Black Talon and Silver Tip. And general Belgian gun laws do not apply to the police as we have specific legislation.


#9

Really? Such controversial cartridges like Black Talon, even in the US? In such “politically correct” place such as Belgium, and Europe in general, where many countries banned “expanding” ammo for police till recently?
That’s shocking news to me.


#10

Belgium is a very complicated state indeed but this forum is not very suitable to discuss such matters. Police can choose its own “materials” as long as it responds to police law. 9mm Luger and an auto pistol.That’s the frame for our standard service gun. The sequel is a balance of test reports and common sense.


#11

Sure, it is not. But, take per example Switzerland, they had to fight and unite all police forces in order to have access to “expanding” ammo during the mid/late-2000’s, before that they could only use military FMJ. The result was not even close to such a thing like Black Talon/SXT “Man Killer Round”, but they finally adopted the “intermediate” politically acceptable Ruag Action 4 ammo - after a deadly shooting in 2005 that opened a breach in the political/public opinion climate, and after millions Swiss francs of tax payers money were spent in studies, campaigns and conferences. And I know for sure that it was not the only country to pass through all these political and public opinion barriers to get “expanding” service ammo. Actually, in Austria police forces don’t use JHP for all these reasons. That’s why I’m so shocked, especially from Belgium - the headquarters’s of the EU and the center of political correctness in Europe.

What handgun do you use, Five-Seven’s as well?


#12

My Glock 17 gen 4, of course in 9 Luger, is very reliable. And Switzerland, being a confederate state, is not that good example I think. But again, that’s beyond this forum.


#13

It’s not a confederate state, but a federal state, like Belgium in the big words, in details Cantons have more autonomy. Though, the ban on expanding ammo was in the federal level, and compulsory for all Cantons.
Austria is even worse in that matter, since the haven’t adopted a proper expanding ammo, yet.
I’m not sure about Italy.

Some Belgian police departments have adopted the Five-Seven, didn’t they?
Would be curious of which ammo do they use in this caliber.


#14

Thanks Duqjans for sharing the pictures!