Sabotaged (booby trapped) cartridges


#1

i178.photobucket.com/albums/w276 … otatge.jpg

I lifted this image from municon. It was listed as a german sabatoge round which was left laying around so it would be picked up and shot in combatants rifles and blow them up. I have never heard of this before, Was this a common practice? It seems very expensive to destroy a few small arms.


#2

What calibre is that? I have certainly never heard of this concept before.Wouldn’t you think it was a bit strange if you found your calibre ammunition (probably wrongly/poorly marked) left laying around where the enemy had been?


#3

American forces did the same thing in Vietnam, and probably other places. Open some boxes, pull a few bullets, dump powder, reload with C4, mix well, rebox and replace where the VC will be sure to find it, walk away.


#4

It wasn’t just the Americans doing the explosive cartridges.
The VC did the same thing. They would leave a gun with ammunition filled with explosive behind where a souivenor hunting american would pick it up. I had a buddy killed this way with a SKS Carbine that blew up.


#5

Were you warned not to shoot any ammo found with souvenir guns once US forces became aware of the VC doing this?


#6

Also seen in South Africa, versus the various Marxist guerilla groups operating there, and not just with small arms ammo. Oftentimes, they’d find a hidden cache of supplies (rifles, ammo, grenades, etc.), and they’d “seed” it with some of these jury-rigged goodies. The next time someone picked up some of those supplies and tried to use them, they would take themselves out of the fight, solving things from that end. I once read how they had fitted a bunch of the tiny Dutch V40 “golf-ball” grenades with 1/4 second fuzes, so the grenade would go off about 3 feet out of the thrower’s hand. You can imagine how this would cause a crimp in the guerilla’s operations, if they could no longer trust their own supplies.


#7

I think you’ll find that most armies have sabotaged ammo at some point. Whether it was done offically or not is another matter.


#8

Falcon–Yes, everyone was warned during your in-country briefing when you first got to Nam. But you know how some people are. They either don’t believe it or are willing to take a chance. The safest way to get ammo for your gun was to remove it from VC who had been just shooting at you 5 minutes before.


#9

My DAD was in CCC IN 1969 and had worked on ELDEST SON.

This was the name of the operation for the insertion of 7.62x39 counterfit rounds filled with petn and a steel ball bearing …then the round was necked down and loaded.The rounds were perfect counterfits as were the boxes.

The idea was to sneak into a camp and insert a box with a couple of rigged rounds into their supply.

Hard to belive my dad was sneaking into a viet cong camp in 1969 to insert a box of ammo and then had to make it back out…

Their were also some other VERY dirty tricks under this operation.


#10

I wonder if this happens today - obviously not “Politically Correct” for a power like the UK/USA to do it, but it sounds like an insurgent tactic. On a visit to Florida last year I shot a Chinese made SKS carbine belonging to a Marine Nam vet who took it from a VC he killed. I take it you are not allowed to bring guns back from warzones nowadays. Shame, I suppose an SKS could quite effectively put food on the table for somebody. But again, that sort of thing is not “Politically Correct”. I am surprised ths was even allowed under the Geneva convention, as wouldn’t it be deemed as causing “unecessary suffering” or some other ludicrous policy?


#11

You CAN NOT bring weapons back from war zones. Units are even having problems bringing back weapons they have captured off dead insurgents. In Iraq they are under orders to return any weapon that could be used by the Iraqi Police and/or Army. Even items like SVDs, Type 85s, Tabuk long snipers, FPKs, 1911s, FG-42s, 1919s, etc, which are not on the ‘to return list’ have to go through a review process. Rumor has it many weapons are sitting at Taji to be approved to be returned to the capturing unit’s garrison.


#12

I take it the individual soldier could not brink back even a politically insensitive firearm like a Mosin-Nagant or Mauser '98 to take home.


#13

Absolutely nothing, zero, zilch. Not even one of the beat-up K-98s. Its not about legality, but a policy was set from the onset of no “war trophies.”


#14

So not even a cartridge case or Iraqui Republican Guard insignia?


#15

You can buy RG stuff, even Saddam’s plates… that’s OK.


#16

For what it is worth, considering the source, I read an article many years ago about a North Korean AK-47 being fired with the C-4 filled cartridges. I beleive the article was by Peter Kokalis of Soldier of Fortune Magazine. The end result was that the rifle fired a full magazine of these sabotaged cartridges on full-auto. There was some damage to the locking lugs of the bolt, but it did not “blow-up”. A testament to the strength of the AK-47?

I was involved with operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm back in 1990-1991. We were not allowed to bring back ANYTHING. Even helmets and web gear were considered to have “intelligence value”, never mind cartridges or weapons! The day after we got all of our gear loaded back onto our ships and the night before we set sail back to the US, an “amnesty period” was granted. If you had any contraband, set it out in plain sight and no questions would be asked. You would not beleive the ordnance that magically appeared by morning! AK’s, makarov pistols, Grenades, ammunition of all kinds, AT mines (no kidding). Different units had different policies though and a lot of helmets, web gear and the like were allowed to be taken as souvenirs. It is a strange state of affairs that for Soldiers and Marines who are trained in the use of firearms, ammunition and explosive ordnance, the posession of a single, fired cartridge case is a mortal sin!

AKMS


#17

I just want to confirm what Ron Merchant is saying is true. I know a Nam vet who says that one only uses ammo off freshly killed VC because otherwise you don’t know if it will blow up in your face.


#18

[quote=“cobb”]My DAD was in CCC IN 1969 and had worked on ELDEST SON.

This was the name of the operation for the insertion of 7.62x39 counterfit rounds filled with petn and a steel ball bearing …then the round was necked down and loaded.The rounds were perfect counterfits as were the boxes.

The idea was to sneak into a camp and insert a box with a couple of rigged rounds into their supply.

Hard to belive my dad was sneaking into a viet cong camp in 1969 to insert a box of ammo and then had to make it back out…

Their were also some other VERY dirty tricks under this operation.[/quote]

Cobb, there were like 3 such operations. Have a look here:
flyarmy.org/panel/battle/70022300.HTM


#19

@AKMS: I don’t know why one would want to smuggle an AT mine home, an AK or Makarov pistol I can understand why. Did they actually search all of your gear, as I would have thought a pistol could easily be sneaked back. There used to be a deactivated MG42 sitting in the corner of the place where I shoot trap, which was apparently a souvenir from WW2, and had been found in a loft years later.


#20

Yes, AT mines. Don’t ask me why someone would want one or several, but they were in the pile of “contraband” the next day. And, yes, they did search our gear fairly well. Both personal and vehicles/equipment. Of course, soldiers and Marines being a sneaky and resourceful lot, a lot of intersting items ended up coming home anyways…One tank crewman I knew of disassembled an AK-47 and stuffed the parts into the fuel cell of his vehicle. Several guys mailed parts and pieces home and reassembled them later. I ran into another fellow who had a beautiful Iraqi made 14.5x114mm round. I was trying to talk him into selling it to me, but no luck. He ended-up butchering it in the process of removing the projectile and powder. He tried to deactivate the primer by hitting it with a punch and hammer. When the primer detonated, it flew out of the case and went through the side of his nose.

AKMS