SAMSON 9x19mm GSG-9


#1

I have this SAMSON 9x19 box and they told me that this ammo was used by the German GSG-9
I like to know for what weapon and who used this cartridge

thanks
gyrojet

headstamp:IMI 9mm-luger


#2

Gyrojet,

I believe you meant German GSG-9 (Grenzschutz-Gruppe 9). Being a special force group of the Federal Police they get better access to equipment the normal cop would never get to see. A thinkable use is for the silenced MP5, but because of the freedoms they have any other feasible use is possible.

Hans


#3

Thank you Hans…

regards
gyrojet


#4

This ammunition was also sold commercially in the United States. I cannot speak for any other country. Regarding GSG-9, I am told they have basically a blank check from the German MdI and often go out and buy what they need on the open retail market - even guns they think they might need for just one mission.

John Moss


#5

Interestingly, gyrojet’s specimen lacks the light blue tip on this load as sold in the US.


#6

Stanc - good observation! I have several different commercial boxes for IMI subsonics of 158 grain bullet, and several different military boxes for other subsonic loads (lighter bullets) and the box specimens ALL have a blue tip. I didn’t check my singles collection. Interesting that they would not have tip identification, since that is the norm for Israeli subsonics. They even mark their military pistol loads, which are not subsonic but are lower velocity than the standard issue load for the Uzi was, with a silver tip. I cannot, in fact, think of any other country that uses so many different tip colors on ball rounds - that is, cartridges with normal, non-pyrotechnic and non AP projectiles. I have blue, black, green, yellow and brown at least. Different velocities, but all normal FMJ bullets of one weight or another.

I see that Gyroject’s also seem to have a standard “9mm LUGER” headstamp. My commercial blue tip rounds with 158 grain bullets have the “9mm Carbine” headstamp.

John Moss


#7

Interesting! My boxes are the UZI brand (woodgrain printed on paper), with bluetip 158gr rounds. FWIW, I have seen huge differences in velocity and pressure between similar loads in the UZI and Samson brand (UZI being the hotter of the 2 in every comparison I’ve done).

Hansen cartridge used to markey a 158gr blue-tip subsonic, and as far as I know it was IMI made or IMI components (I think they’ve also imported or use components from various OCONUS makers).

A guy named David DiFabio used to run AmmoLab…he also used to work for IMI and when I asked him about the colored tips he stated they were to denote bullet weight. He advised the IMI 158gr is an extremely high-pressure round, even though it is a subsonic.

Strangely, the IMI 62gr reduced-charge 5.56x45mm (not a true subsonic as far as I know) has a blue tip, even though IMI has had other 62gr loads without coloration or with a different marking.

The old 158gr 9mmP loads issued with the USN ‘Hush Puppy’ S&W pistol/stock/silencer kit had green tips, and the commercial Fiocchi 158gr subsonic loads I have are uncolored.

As to usage, the only practical use would be in a 9mm carbine/SMG/pistol with a muzzle suppressor attached. Integrelly silenced weapons (Mp5SD specifically) are usually designed for use with standard-velocity ammo, as they bleed gas/speed internally to reduce most any load to below the speed of sound.

Why GSG9 would choose an IMI load when RUAG and other European companies make a variety of excellent subsonic 9mm loads is odd…except for the fact that in their circles the use of a foreign or commercial headstamp might be useful for purposes of plausible deniability. That, and maybe the IMI was cheaper!

One of RUAGs subsonic loads uses a Remington Golden Saber BJHP projectile, and of course there are wide variety of current-usage US police and military subsonics.


#8

[quote=“Mwinter”]…
Why GSG9 would choose an IMI load when RUAG and other European companies make a variety of excellent subsonic 9mm loads is odd…except for the fact that in their circles the use of a foreign or commercial headstamp might be useful for purposes of plausible deniability. That, and maybe the IMI was cheaper!..[/quote]
Or IMI was earlier on the market, or somebody wanted to compare, or IMI sent in samples, or …
Plausible reasons are countless, for a Police force deniability however plays no role.

Hans


#9

Hans,

Even though GSG9 does not currently respond to assignments outside the country, there is good record of them previously having been deployed to Turkey, Cyprus, Dubai, and Mogadishu (all in response to threats against German/friendly assets or personnel) and were supposedly offered up to assist a Tier 1 US SMU in the Middle East (did not deploy to that incident as far as I know). I’m no expert, so I don’t know what (if any) 9mm weapons that GSG9 were using during that timeframe, or whether the Israelis were producing the 158gr sub stuff at the time.

Police or not, if they are a national asset operating outside their home territory then the concern of plausible deniability exists, if only in theory or very small degrees. There is also good record of the unit doing infiltrations inside terrorist organizations in Germany…again, another possible example of a situation where they’d be better off not being associated with the standard table of organization and publicly recognizable equipment associated with GSG9.

With regard to ammunition, it is generally of more benefit to use weapons, calibers AND cartridges that assist in that respect (rather than just ammo from elsewhere). This is one small part of the reason that US Tier I assets have solid training in foreign weapons.


#10

Gyrojet, I got one of these rounds from a mutual friend in Holland. I understood it was for a Dutch special police unit. That was probably my mistake. Thanks for sorting this out.

Cheers,

Lew


#11

Yes Lew that are the same cartridges

thanks!!

gyrojet