Sellier & Bellot 38spl shot loads


#1

I was looking at the online products at the S&B website and there were a couple .38spl loads there which were not there as of a few months ago (approximately), or at least the images of the rds weren’t there. I wonder if they are a new L.E. offering from S&B? I assume they are the bean bag type load similar to the Shortstop. There are two types, with the only difference being velocity:

http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/law-enforcement-detail.php?ammunition=21&product=48

http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/law-enforcement-detail.php?ammunition=21&product=49


#2

Matt, I can not say as for the catalog/website but these cartrridges have been around for years now.


#3

It seems a strange choice for a police load.


#4

Vince - Maybe they are a good choice for a security guard, armored car driver, or police who do concert or event security where there’s lots of people around?

EOD - I’ll be on the lookout for some S&B loads like this then, since I have some MBA Shortstops, some Mesko bean bag loads, and some Arsenal “Stop” loads. These must be about the same as those. Somebody could do a nice IAA journal article if they had a few of each of these to dissect one, section one, shoot one, etc.


#5

At good old days a couple of decades ago here in Bulgaria the policeman (should I say “militiaman”, since the police those days was called “militia”) in order to use his Makarov was obliged to: first make a “warning shot” in the air, than if the offender don’t stop and keep running, the policeman should shoot at him a “stop” cartridge (“Shortstop”), and after all that, if the offender still not going to obey the orders, the policeman was cleared to use live munitions (ball catrtidges). This was due to the obsolete normatives. The policeman should has to choose: three (!!!) magazines filled with different cartridges (blanks, stops, balls), or a kind of a “sandwich” in one magazine - the first round was blank, the second was “Stop” and the subsequent were ordinary balls. This was the reason of rather comic (sometimes, of course, tragic) situations. Back there in 1990 or 91 the laws were still unchanged - Imagine: I’m standing at first floor of a block in the otskirts of Sofia and watching - there was an outlaw chased by policeman, who was shouting “Stop, stop right now!” and shooting with “stop” cartridges at the back of the offender. The last one reacted on the foregoing by keep on running and just shouting “Ouch, ouch!” and jump every time when the policeman was scoring a hit. Both were forced to leap across bushes and stumps. The police officer was just 5 or 6 meters behind! When this weird “dance” was over the offender was gone, while the officer was sitting down on the ground with his head in his hands…Fortunately, most of the criminals of those days was still not armed at all, and if it wasn’t so, the outcome of this incident might not be so comic.

So I really doubt about the effectiveness of these loads.

Iv4o


#6

Ivo,

I have never seen a Bulgarian 9 x 18 mm Makarov blank. Can you post a picture of one, even if just from a catalog?


#7

John, forgive me for my ignorance, but I’ve never seen ANY Makarov blank cartridge (except on a picture, of course). It looks like Arsenal don’t have such an item in their product catalog of today, don’t know about, say, 20 years ago. I should ask a friend that might know that.
I’ve heard about Czech and Polish blanks, but never got one of these in my hands. The great majority of Makarov rounds here was Russian and Bulgarian made. Sorry that can not help you. Actually, I’ve never intentionally search and I’m not interested in blank ammo that much, but your ask rings a bell for me about that matter. It deservs research on my part. May be our police was supplied with blanks from other Comblock countries? Just don’t know.

Also, forgive me for off-topic!

Take care and have fun!

Ivo


#8

Ivo - thank you. The 9 x 18 mm Makarov blank cartridges do not seem to have been made by many countries. I have a Polish blank in my collection. The Czech blanks are really not, in the truest sense, 9 mm Makarov caliber. The blank firing version of the CZ vz 82 pistol (“9 mm Cvicna Pistole vz 82”) used a blank identical to the earlier 7.62 x 25 mm Tokarev caliber blanks in size and shape. I do not know if there was a difference in powder charge, but there would be no reason for one that I can think of. I am sure this was done with the blank-firing pistol for two reasons - firstly, it prevented a 9 mm vz. 82 ball cartridge from being inserted in the pistol.
Secondly, it would have allowed the use of existing stores of the older 7.62 x 25 blanks. One difference between the 7.62 and the 9 mm versions is that the latter are all brass-cased, whereas the former are usually found in steel cases. Again, though, they are probably interchangeable.

Most collectors classify the post-1982 dates of this Czech blank as being a 9 mm vz 82 blank, which I can’t say is really wrong since the boxes for it are so marked (9 mm cvicny naboj vz 82, abbreviated as simply 9-82 Cv). However, again, in all cartridge external measurements, it is within specifications for the earlier 7.62 blank. It makes the subject somewhat confusing.

The Polish blanks are the only true 9 x 18 mm blank, by cartridge measurements, that I have in my own collection or have seen. I only have it in one date.


#9

John, you are so invaluable source of information, that I even little envy you! Thank you very much for the info!

I forgot to mention, that besides Russian and Bulgarian loads in 9x18 Mak, at that time here Polish and Czech loads of revolver cal.38 Spl. (wadcutters, FMJ(?), LRN, stops) was also common. That was the nomencature of service ammo of those days, as far as I remember, of course. I also have a couple of spend cases in .38 Spl. from Hirtenberger, but these was not so common as are today. 7,65x17SR from GeCo was essential also.

Ivo