Sellier & Bellot box 7.92mm

Thanks Doc AV for these information.

JFL

DocAV, just a minor correction, the “Z” logo was used since July 1st, 1935.

Thanks, Fede,
That explains the use of “Z” Labels on 1935 Circle M dated ammo, in a clearer manner.

Regards,
Doc AV

Fede, can you elaborate on where you got that date of July 1st, 1935 for the use of the “Z” hs.

I always thought that for sporting ammunition the dates for the Zbrojovka Brno factories headstamps were:

JR (monogram) 1923-1928 (note this factory always used six-pointed stars in the hs even when it was previously under G.Roth control and used the same GR monogram hs)
M (in incomplete circle) 1928-1934
Z 1934-1939

Also the Z (in full circle) primers are commonly found on M (in incomplete circle) hs sporting loads to such an extent that I doubt whether they are all reloads and therefore the Z symbol should have been in use before 1934 ?

Brad and DocAv, sorry, it was just a typo, I meant to say July 1st, 1934.

WEll then, there must have been some "circle-M and Z "over-run, as the “8mm mannlichera” cartridges, although with a “Z” packet seal, had a Lion-1935-circle-m headstamp (the Lion being “Bulgaria”) despite the factory ownership having changed as stated.

AS I said earlier, I have not seen any “Z” marked export cartridges dated earlier than 1936, nor any “circle M” dated After 1935. Which led to my natural assumptuion, the the change-over of ownership happened sometime between 35 and 36.

Nothing much turns on the different dates, except maybe the expectation of a headstamp existng when it actually did not…

regards,
Doc AV

The Argentine army had stocks of 7.65 x 53 Mauser ammunition headstamped M 33 7.65, M 34 7.65, M 34 7.65SS and 19 Z 35 7.65 S which were originally provided to Bolivia during the Chaco War (15 June 1932 - 12 June 1935) and then probably captured by Paraguay and later given to Argentina.

There are also 7.65 x 53 Mauser rounds headstamped SS Z 41 7’65 but I don’t know which was the original addressee.

I have double-checked every date this time!

Interesting topic.

Perhaps somebody can answer my questions related to S&B ctges.

7.92 ctges with hstp 19 / SB / last two digits of the year / roman number
:

  1. from which year to which year were they manufactured ?

  2. from which year to which year were they offered to export ?

303 ctges with hstp 19 / SB / last two digits of the year / P :

  1. from which year to which year were they manufactured ?

  2. from which year to which year were they offered to export ?

  3. were they used by the Czech army ?

Hunting carbine ctges and handgun ctges with hstp * / SB / * / P :

  1. from which year to which year were they manufactured ?

  2. from which year to which year were they offered to export ?

Hunting carbine ctges with hstp * SBP * “caliber” :

from which year to which year were they manufactured ?

Thanks

JP

Dear jean-Pierre,
ref. S&B .303 cartrtidges, these were made for the Czech Airforce ( some .303 Vickers etc still in use, although by the late 1930s, mostly ZB aircraft guns in 7,9), and for export to Baltic states, which had both Czech Aircraft and British and Czech made .303 Guns. Also, Latvia used .303 in Army, as well as Estonia.
(S&B had a small factory in Riga in the late 30s. “SB R” headstamp)

Can’t help on the other questions.

Doc AV

wrt "Hunting carbine ctges with hstp * SBP * “caliber” ":

There is no definite answer to this question that I know of, however an educated guess can be made. This hs style appeared before 1930 (probably post WW1). The Neroxin primer was introduced in 1936 and the Neroxin symbol shortly after began replacing the ‘stars’ in the hs and I don’t believe the stars were used after WW2.

So I would say in the 1920’s and 1930’s.

The “Hunting carbine ctges and handgun ctges with hstp * / SB / * / P” were an earlier hs style used after the plain “SB” hs style which was used until at least 1910. The “* / SB / * / P” hs style was still shown in catalogs well into the 1930’s but I suspect that they were no longer used by that stage. So I would say “* / SB / * / P” hs was used from c1910-c1930.

There was most likely a considerable overlap of these three hs styles. If anyone can be more definite then that, it would be great to see how they determined it.

Hello, First post on this site. I have a Package of this S&B 1938 7.92mm I was wondering what the constitution of the Bullet is? The Bullet is almost too pretty to shoot. They stick Hard to a Magnet. Almost looks like an SMKH ?

Rangeme, first welcome to the site. On the box and cartridge you describe, pictures are worth a thousand words.

Joe

Fede, can you elaborate on where you got that date of July 1st, 1935 for the use of the “Z” hs.

I always thought that for sporting ammunition the dates for the Zbrojovka Brno factories headstamps were:

JR (monogram) 1923-1928 (note this factory always used six-pointed stars in the hs even when it was previously under G.Roth control and used the same GR monogram hs)
M (in incomplete circle) 1928-1934
Z 1934-1939

Also the Z (in full circle) primers are commonly found on M (in incomplete circle) hs sporting loads to such an extent that I doubt whether they are all reloads and therefore the Z symbol should have been in use before 1934 ?

How about the Z in a full circle headstamp mark on typical Czech 7,92 from the time period? What does the circle around the Z on the headstamp signify? Maybe different brass supplier?

Joe

Pictures added;

Joe, the circle should be part of the original logo as which got simplified for hs applications as it is too filigree to be displayed.

Alex, thanks. Must not have been something they done often, as I only have the one example out of manny plain just “Z” no circle.

Joe

Joe, with 15mm up they also used the full logo with the bore profile (surrounding the “Z” as above in my b/w image). I guess it was a question of space and resources to be spent.

Alex, I agree on that the full trademark logo was only used in cases from 15 mm up and not in small calibers for a matter of space, and that the Z in full circle is its simplified form (the same situation occurs with the earlier M logo). However, Joe is right noting that this is rarely found in military ammunition and for some reason its use overlaps with that of the Z without a circle. In fact, it seems that it was only used in 7.65x54 cartridges headstamped 19 Z 34 7.65 S and 19 Z 35 7.65 S, and 7x57 and 7.9x57 cartridges headstamped 19 / Z / 36 / III /, as every single month made before and after has a Z without a circle.

Joe, here is a picture of the packet that correspond to cartridges headstamped 19 / Z (in full circle) / 36 / III /. As you can see, the unusual Z in full circle is also barely visible on the side above “Brno”. Given the Spanish language label and that it is also found in 7x57 caliber, I would consider this to be Republican contract. Cases of those calibers with this headstamp were recovered from Civil War battefields. Regards, Fede.

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Fede,

I have boxes of the same box you pictured and the ones I have opened have CNCS brass cased 7,92 on nickel strippers with headstamp / SB 36 / III / 19 /. It is “S” ball with a black annulus. So you are stating that your box or boxes contain the headstamp 19 / Z (in full circle) / 36 / III /?

joe

Joe, I can’t explain why those S&B cartridges were packed in a Brno box, but I guess that maybe there was cooperation between these companies to supply the Republicans. The packaging of two headstamps having the same manufacturing month and year doesn’t seem to be a coincidence.