When were the berdan primers with an “N” in a shield made? It seems like I remember that these were pre-WW2, but can’t remember. Were they made later than that?
I cannot speak for primers, since the only place I know the “Shield N” marking is from .22 Center Fire cartridges made for use in German training cartridges (
Gents , here is what I understand is the story about those RWS primer markings:
“U” (U = “Utendoerffer” ?) : used from 1901 until 1905
"R" (R = “RWS” ?) : used from 1905 until 1926
"N" (N = “Nurnberg”) : This is the SINOXID primer and was used from 1926.
Thanks! Does anyone know how late they were made or are they still made?
Brad - I cannot dispute your information regarding primers. I simply have no information on primer markings. I have, I believe, even cried out for someone expert to do a monograph or book on primer markings - all primer markings.
However, the date information you give is not accurate for RWS products in general. RWS catalogs throughout the 1930s and up until at least 1955 show the Shield trademark used exactly as I spelled it out in my previous answer on this thread. As late as 1955, .22 rimfire ammunition is shown as having headstamps of Shield R, and in fact, in that catalog, there is an entire page (36) in German that extolls the virtues and record of the “Patronen .22 Marke R.”
The same catalog (1955) as well as ones from the 1930s show the 4m/m
John. I agree that the “R” and “U” on RWS RF and IP hs were used later than the dates I gave. However, my info was referring to primer markings (which I believe was the question) rather than hs markings.
My info came from so long ago that I cannot now remember the reference, so who knows if it is exactly correct but there were “R” and “U” PRIMERS.
Brad - I know the question was about primers, and don’t challenge your information on them. I just don’t have any knowledge of them. I was just trying to show the eras these registered trademarks were used in to try and help in the first answer I gave.
Your answer was very helpful as well, but didn’t mention that your dates did not necessarily reflect overall use of these marks. I wanted to correct the possible impression that the information I did give was wrong.
I would still like to see pictures of them to round out the thread, expecially since none of my Utendoerffer or RWS sport 7.9s have the marks. That is not denying they exist - I simply and genuinely would like to see them. I print out threads like this for my files, and pictures are very helpful to complete the information.
This is on a reloaded .42 Berdan. I have other cartridges that I think are reloads with the same primer. I’m trying to date when it may have been done and who did it.
I have been looking thru my notes re the RWS primers and it appears the reference to the “R” and “U” primers came from old German collectors. However, I cannot verify this for sure and have been unable to find an image of a (CF) primer with such marks. If anyone has such primers I would be very interested to see them
Re the “N” in shield SINOXID primer. John, I cannot see a reference to SINOXID in the 1921 catalog as you state - can you tell me what page ?
There is no mention in 1912, 1900 and other earlier RWS catalogs.
Even though the SINOXID primer was used on military ammo from 1926, according to Heinz Held, the SINOXID tradename first appeared on sporting packets in 1928 and all my info supports that. It appears they stopped using such primers around late 1950’s /early 1960’s.
So Hendere, this means your reload could have been carried out sometime after 1926/28 as these primers are common and could well have been used well after 1960 - not too much help
Hendere - thanks for posting the picture. I wonder if all the rounds with these primer marks are reloads. That is, if only the primers sold for reloading were so arked. Like I said, I have over 50 8 x 57 sporting rounds from RWS and not one of them has a primer marked with anything. They go back as far as Utendoerffer headstamp.
Wish I knew more about primer markings. I know there are collectors who specialize in primers. Years ago, at Chicago shows, there was a fairly young (by my standards) collector who had a big binder with pages with pockets probably original for coins. He had an incredible number of different primers - I mean hundreds. I was able to add one - I had a quantity of original German steel-cupped primers for the 7.9 taken as a souvenir by someone who was among the US soldiers that entered one of the German ammo factories. He didn’t have one of those.
We desparately need a book on the who, what, when, where and why of primer markings!