Shotgun Chamber lengths


#1

Would like to know if there exist or existed shorter - than - 65 mm chamber lengths for these cartridges , made for sporting/hunting shotguns :

36 ( 410) gauge
32 gauge
28 gauge
24 gauge
20 gauge
16 gauge
12 gauge
10 gauge

Are there some 67 mm long chambers for the calibers listed above?

Note : I am talking about shotshells with standardized outside dimesions

I know that the most common chamber lengths are : 65 mm , 70 mm , 76 mm and ( for 12 and 10 gauge) 89 mm

Thanks in advance


#2

Aguila “mini-shells” come to mind first

factory offering in 12 ga, 1 3/4" shell length
midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?p … ber=255579


#3

I’ve looked into short shells (shorter than 2.75") quite a bit over the past couple years due to needing ammo for my Techno-Arms Mag-7 shotgun which is magazine fed (through the pistol-grip).

The only short shells (12ga) that I know of are these:

–Aguila Mini shells - which come in birdshot, slug, and multi-buck which is #4 and #1 buck mix (None of these work very well in pump action guns as far as ejecting properly)

–Centurion 2.00" and newer 2.25" shells - come in #00 buck, #1 Buck, and .650 miniball

–Paraklese Technologies 1.80" shells - which come in various buckshot and slug types (they will load anything)

–Polywad Inc - loads birdshot in 2.00" or 2.50" “Vintager” shells which are low-recoil / low-power

–Gamebore by Kent - loads 2.00" and 2.50" shells which are vintage birdshot-only type loads of low power design.

The best one for me is the Centurion, since it is the only one which is powerful enough to be worth while in the kind of gun I am using. The Paraklese ones are ok, but being slightly shorter they do not eject as well all of the time as compared to the Centurion. The Gamebore and Polywads are ok, but they are just weak birdshot loads designed use in things like old Damascus barrel shotguns. J&G and AIMsurplus seem to have pretty consistent stocks of Centurion.


#4

If my memory doesn’t fail me I seem to recall that the Eley Trainer cartridges of the late 1970’s were 1 7/8" (47.63mm)
I do remember that being shorter than normal cartridges it enabled me to fit an extra round in the magazine of my Mossberg 500ATP8SP shotgun when shooting birdshot stages in practical shotgun competition in the early 1980’s.


#5

Thanks,
yes I know those short cartridges ( aguila and others) but I doubt that 44.5 - 45 mm chamber lengths do exist .Those cartridges were made for standard or magnum chambers .

I know that several shotshell were available with a case length of 50 mm ( 2") , just wondering if those were intended for 50 mm long chambers or for the commonly available 65 mm standard chambers .In other words , did exist hunting/sporting shotguns with chambers 50 mm long?


#6

Hi Pivi,

  1. Just taking a quick look on the different gun proof houses documents, here are the different lengths you can find depending of the gauge
    10 Gauge : 65, 67, 70, 73, 80, 100
    12 Gauge : 50, 63.5, 65*, 67, 70, 73, 75, 80, 85, 90
    14 Gauge : 63.5, 65*, 67, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90
    16 Gauge : 63.5, 65*, 67, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90
    20 Gauge : 65*, 67, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90
    24 Gauge : 60, 63.5, 65*, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90
    28 Gauge : 60, 63.5, 65*, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90
    14 mm: 50, 60, 63.5, 65, 70
    12 mm: 50, 63.5, 65, 70, 73, 75

And you have of course the corresponding chamber lengths

I didn’t check the special manufacturing wher you can find shorter or longer measurements

  1. The 51 mm chamber for 12 gauge exists, the proof of evidence been in the 1954 Birmingham gun barrel proof house documents where they give dimensions for such a chamber.
    Therefore the gun can shoot only 50 mm ctges and not longer ones.

  2. You always can shoot a ctge with a length shorter than the one designed for the original chamber. Example : shooting a 51 or 65 mm ctge in a 70 or 76 chamber.
    Indeed a shotgun chamber is conical.

  3. Is this forum tricky or do I drink too much ?
    It looks like yesterday there was another answer in this post but it is no more now ??!!!

jp

JP


#7

[quote=“Pivi”]Would like to know if there exist or existed shorter - than - 65 mm chamber lengths for these cartridges , made for sporting/hunting shotguns :

36 ( 410) gauge
32 gauge
28 gauge
24 gauge
20 gauge
16 gauge
12 gauge
10 gauge

Are there some 67 mm long chambers for the calibers listed above?

Note : I am talking about shotshells with standardized outside dimesions

I know that the most common chamber lengths are : 65 mm , 70 mm , 76 mm and ( for 12 and 10 gauge) 89 mm

Thanks in advance[/quote]

Simply download from here everything you want to know about current shotgun calibers:
saami.org/Publications/209.pdf


#8

Wow super answers ! Thank you all very much

JP , yes , I know the fact that yopu can use a shorter case in a longer chamber .This is why I posted the question , for cataloging purposes . Since you can shoot a 70 mm 12 gauge shell into a magnum 76 mm chamber , the reverse is not true , so I can consider the two lengths as two distinct cartridges since they don’t fully interchange .

Obviously , since chambers as long as 50 mm exist ( or existed) I can now consider even a 50 mm 12 gauge shell as a distinct cartridge compared to the common 65 mm length , since you can shoot the 50 mm version in the longer chamber , but not vice - versa


#9

[quote=“Pivi”]
Obviously , since chambers as long as 50 mm exist ( or existed) I can now consider even a 50 mm 12 gauge shell as a distinct cartridge compared to the common 65 mm length , since you can shoot the 50 mm version in the longer chamber , but not vice - versa[/quote]

Yes you are right.

About me I differenciate the different ctges about the gauge number first, then the standard, then the different lengths.
(if the standard is different the ctge will not enter the chamber)

But when I count the different calibers I don’t take into account the different lengths. It would be too much !

JP


#10

[quote="hbroemel"
Simply download from here everything you want to know about current shotgun calibers:
saami.org/Publications/209.pdf[/quote]

this will give you only the american standard which is slighty different than the CIP one.

Even now when they want to sell ctges on the Us market, the european manufacturers have to make a special manufacturing.

JP


#11

I agree. Anyway I think I have “standardized” shells only in my collection since all my samples are quite late productions ( max 1935 or so), except for the 8 & 4 gauge ( that have never been universally standardized I think) .I should have the french versions of these shotshells ( all made by french factories) .I compared their dimensions to the data reported on the Fiocchi 1926 catalog and they match French standard


#12

Hello, don’t think that Pivi.

  1. European (except England) CIP standardization was in 1969.
    Therefore if you have French or Italian shells from before 1969 you surely have a chance they are not standardized (some French ones and some Leon Beaux for example)
    Furthermore you can find British shells for the French market with French dimensions.

  2. British shells from before 1982 are, depending of the gauges, not all CIP standardized.
    Indeed, despite the fact this country was the first to standardize the chambers of the guns (they had two different standards: Eley and Kynoch and they started to make a new one in 1900), unfortunately they stayed without evoluting on their 1904 standard (who was the base of the CIP standard) till the CIP normes adpotion in 1982

  3. Fiocchi has been following the internationnal standard since 1926, therefore it is ok with their shells.

  4. Same for RWS in Germany. But you can have surprises with S&B and Hirtenberger shells.

  5. Regarding the chambers it is the same story because the dimensions of the chambers go with the dimensions of shells.

  6. Same for bore diameter of the guns.
    An amuzing point is England. Till 1982 they were very funny about the internal dimensions of the barrels. Tolerances were so high they covered many gauges.
    You can say about their dimensions: “if the lead shot goes out of the barrel, it is good”.

Furthermore the gunsmiths were allowed to change the internal diameter of the barrel after the proof, this been forbidden in the other countries.

Therefore you can find british guns with the following marks /1, /2, on the barrel.
For example the 8 Gauge was going from 9 to 7 : 9, 9/1, 9/2, 8, 8/1, 8/2, 7, 7/1, 7/2., the 32 Gauge from 30 to 38, and so on !
For 12 Gauge you can find guns with : 13, 13/1, 12, 12/1

  1. Last point is the fact many compagnies tried to find a compromise in the dimensions to be able to be on many markets without changing the manufacturing process.

In conclusion, except if you have only plastic shells in your collection, check the dimensions carefully.

JP


#13

Mmmmhh , I think I will need your book with all the drawings when it will be published .

Through my paper 20 - gauge samples I found a 76 mm magnum case made by Leon beaux with a slightly smaller rim diameter and a slightly larger head diameter compared with the other Fiocchi , Martignoni , Summonte and RWS shells , that have about the same dimensions with a tolerance of about 0,02 - 0,04 mm

Luckily most of my samples are Fiocchi made .


#14

I measured some 20 gauge shells of various makers , plastic & paper

Rim diam : 19.25 - 19.35 mm
Head diam : 17.50 - 17.60 mm
Rim thickness : 1.35 - 1.44 mm

Is it common this tolerance ?

The 20 gauge shell made by Beaux is far from these dimensions :

Rim diam : 19.10 mm
Head diam : 17.70 mm
Rim Thickness : 1.15 mm


#15

[quote=“Pivi”]I measured some 20 gauge shells of various makers , plastic & paper

Rim diam : 19.25 - 19.35 mm
Head diam : 17.50 - 17.60 mm
Rim thickness : 1.35 - 1.44 mm

Is it common this tolerance ?

The 20 gauge shell made by Beaux is far from these dimensions :

Rim diam : 19.10 mm
Head diam : 17.70 mm
Rim Thickness : 1.15 mm[/quote]


#16

20 gauge is one of the most difficult to recognize.

  1. In 1961 (1969) the new CIP standard managed , not only to decrease the minima for head and base diameters,but furthermore to give to the maximum of the rim the minimum dimension of the chamber (with zero tolerance)

for 20 gauge, CIP dimensions (before 1961) are
Rim diam : 19.25 - 19.40 mm
Head diam : 17.60 - 17.70 mm
Rim thickness :1.40 - 1.50 mm

and after 1961:
Rim diam : 19.20 - 19.40 mm
Head diam : 17.55 - 17.70 mm
Rim thickness :1.35 - 1.55 mm

  1. Therefore you have to determine first the date : before or after 1961.

If it is before 1961, it is still very difficult for a 20 gauge.

Indeed the French standard was changed (only for the 20 gauge) in 1930 to be compatible with the CIP dimensions !

Like you can see with the following tables , except if you are lucky to find a ctge with a dimension fitting in one categorie and not the other, it is not easy.

French dimensions (standard 1930)

Rim diam : 19.20- 19.40 mm
Head diam : 17.50- 17.70
Rim Thickness : 1.30- 1.50 mm

Leon Beaux (standard 1947)

Rim diam : 19.10 -19.30 mm
Head diam : 17.45- 17.60
Rim Thickness : 1.40- 1.50 mm

In any case your rim dimension looks to be too small .
(It is very difficult to measure specialy when the rim is conical. I use go no go gauges)
jp


#17

Thanks,
anyway i found a surprise through my cases .My 4 gauge samples ( one french paper shell and an all steel one made by Ravizza in Milan) are very different .Their diameters differ of about 1 mm and the rim thickness of the all - steel one is more than 3 mm .While the paper one matches the 4 gauge according french standard the second one is ,according to me , an English standard

I agree, rim thickness is very difficult to measure due its shape .