Show me some "faked" cartridges


#1

I know we have all been burned at least once or twice; getting a cartridge that turned out to be “fake” in one way or another. Lets see some examples of ones to look out for…

I don’t mean replicas or handloads or aftermarket specialty “gunshow” loads, but honest-to-goodness examples of dishonest fakery.

AKMS


#2

I’ve got two good fakes here, they both came with collections I bought so I can’t say realy what I paid for them. The big rimfire (to me) looked like I realy had something. I posted it three times in three years on this site and someone finally told me I had a fake. It is 60 cal. with a raised D headstamp. The other cartridge is pretty rough made with a 40 cal. lead bullet with a “W” on the bullet.


#3

I have also seen some very old and stained cases such as the Wanzl RF ones , assembled with bright and new lead bullets like the Jack Mack’s RF fake

These are very easy to tell from a genuine round


#4

Isn’t that an artillery primer with a bullet stuck in it?


#5

7.62mm x 51 flechette fake, it was part of a collection I bought.

I have to say I like this fake :)


#6

Are they actually flechettes or are they sewing needles?


#7

Fakery with larceny in mind is a very gray area in all collecting circles - from postcards to automobiles. The very best fakes are so authentic that they are never discovered. Which brings to mind an age-old question - if a fake is so real as to fool everyone, even the experts, is it a fake? Anything that man can make, another man can make also. Do we collect something simply because of what it is or because of who made it, and when??

Even wildcats can, and are, being faked. That doesn’t seem to make sense, depending on your definition of a wildcat, except to a serious collector, like me.

Ray


#8

Sorry but how can you fake a wildcat?


#9

They’re not flechettes so probably are sewing needles of some type.


#10

Could the 7.62 “flechette” be phonograph needles? I vaguely recall reading about such a fake somewhere…


#11

They look like darts points to me.


#12

That sounds right, thanks.


#13

If you go to GB you can buy flechettes by the pound. I’m not sure if they are correct for any of the old experimentals since I’ve never been inclined to fake a flechette cartridge.

Pivi - I have known guys who will make an old and rare wildcat with correct components and then bury it in their backyard for a while to give it the correct patina. Then try to sell it as an original.

I once knew a guy in Montana who would buy replica stuff like spurs, pistols, ammunition, mostly Civil and Indian War stuff, and bury it in his backyard for a year or so. He would even go so far as to pee on the dirt every so often to get the Urea into the soil. He would dig it up and take it to Gun Shows in other states and sell it. No matter how fast we would try to warn people about him he still prospered. If he had spent the same time working an odd job he probably could have made more money.

Never under estimate a faker.

Ray


#14

Ray,
I think a reproduction of a collectible cartridge that is sold as the real thing is a fake - plain and simple. If it is sold as a reproduction and marked as such, its a reproduction.

With wildcats, since they are made up from other carridge cases, and usually still bear the original headstamp, is there really such a thing as a reproduction or a fake? I think if the case is formed to the correct dimensions, and it is loaded with the correct bullet and powder charge, its just a wildcat.


#15

But Guy - how can you say that a reproduction of an old collectible cartridge is only a fake while a reproduction of an old wildcat is not? Wildcats are collectible too.

For example, A year or so ago a friend gave me an old cartridge that he could not ID. I measured, etc, and it turned out to be a 22 Koshollek, a wildcat that I knew about but had never seen before. (It’s pictured on another thread). To me, it made my whole year. Almost. Anyway, I could take an old WRA Co 32WCF, make a sizing die, form the case and stuff in an old Sisk bullet but I still would not consider it the same as the original.

How about Sharp’s cartridges? 125 years ago a hunter would reload his cases over and over again so none of them were original anymore. So, would you turn down an old Sharp’s case as not being original. How about if you had some original pp bullets and reloaded it yourself, the same as that old hunter did?

Where do you draw the line? I suppose it’s all individual taste. I do agree that trying to sell something for what it’s not constitutes larceny but what we’re really talking about is the item itself, not a person’s intent.

We could discuss this endlessly (we already have many times) but we’d better put this to rest for now. When the big kids get back home next week we know that they have strong opinions and I don’t want to hear them again.

Ray


#16

[quote]How about Sharp’s cartridges? 125 years ago a hunter would reload his cases over and over again so none of them were original anymore. So, would you turn down an old Sharp’s case as not being original. How about if you had some original pp bullets and reloaded it yourself, the same as that old hunter did?

Where do you draw the line? I suppose it’s all individual taste. [/quote]

I have no problem adding an empty Sharps case to my collection. I suspect most of us have Sharps and other cartridges in our collections that are reloads. Many of the old black powder cases were sold originally as empties, so when you encounter a loaded one, it may not be a ‘factory’ load. A good example is the everlasting cases.

It does come down to a decision on the collector’s part as to what he will or will not include in his collection.


#17

Ray: I have a collector who goes about duplicating a wildcat down to the powder charge, that If I had the rifle would it be considered a fake, I don’t believe so it has been duplicated just as Rem duplicates millions of 22-250 cartridges. I feel if there was a idea it was produced by the originator that would not be right. But it is presented just as it is a made wildcat. Thanks Vic


#18

Go to Gettysburg and you will find tourist shops selling lead bullets all of which were allegedly dug up on the battle field. Actually, its true - they were dug up by the same guy that buried them a year or so before.


#19

Well, let’s put a “real” fake up here. The cartridge came in a collection I bought,
but I discovered upfront that this was not a real one.
However it matches the real fakes that ChrisP describes in his Bible.
The cartridge came marked: .30US T128 Guard, has the wrong weight and the wrong headstamp.
If you shake the cartridge you can hear the shot rattle.

If anybody has a real one for trade, pls let me know.

cheers
Ren