Siamese 8x52R Headstamps

Hi, All…

Type 45 cartridge adopted in Thai year 2445…(1902)

Thai Type 45 HS_zpsrhmygcgs

Thai Type 45 Profile_zpscdr6fauu

And…Type 66 cartridge adopted in 2466…(1923)…Appears to have been a loaded round which was inerted…Apologize for the small photos !

Thai Type 66 HS_zps6hhozybz

Thai Type 66 Profile_zpseauuwnmf

Are any other headstamps known on this cartridge using Siamese characters, and what is the meaning of the other characters in the headstamps, (other than the characters denoting the adoption year)…?
Randy

Randy,
I think your 1st image is upside down. I just got a couple of these rounds from Mr.Fetch to go with my unaltered 8x50R Siamese Mauser with unaltered (pretty uncommon) bayo, courtesy of Kowishikawa Arsenal. Both ammo and wooden grips of bayos rotted in tropical humidity. This headstamp appears to be the most common. Municion.org shows a couple of other headstamps. I never saw them at the shows. If you want to look for something extremely rare, find a Siamese muzzle cover. Siamese Mauser is the only Mauser in which the muzzle cover goes into the trap door of the buttstock.

Vlad…

The photos are “borrowed” from other places…no way to edit them…

Randy

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8625

Thanks, Brian…

Good ol’ Phil Butler…sure did keep some nice records…

Randy

Here is my collection log. I hope they are readable and helpful.

Excellent collection of Siam T45 and T66 Headstamps…The “Specials” (Tracer etc) were for the T66(?) Vickers Guns, which the RTA had from the Interwar Period.

The Firearms and Ammunition needs were serviced by the Army’s Arsenal at Bungsoo, outside Bangkok, which was mostly British equipped after WW I ( Siam had sent Observers to the Western front)
although Siam still maintained good relationships with Japan, getting the New (Arisaka based) T66 Rifle, as well as the “New” T66 Cartridge which is a “Product improvement” of the Japanese 8mm Murata Cartridge (case), made in order to “upgrade” the Older 8x50R chambers easily to a Spitzer cartridge ( Simple Ream out of a few Thous of an Inch on body size, and slightly longer chamber to eliminate eroded Throats on the 8x50R chambers). A recalibration ( machining) of the rear sight ramp adjusted the sights to the Flatter shooting T66 Cartridge.

It is unknown if any of the Earlier Mannlicher M88/90s were also converted, but Photos do show them being used as “Trainers” as late as the 1950s.

The “Sako” made 8x52R Ammo was more for the Surplus Market, as by that time, Thailand had changed to .30 cal and Later 7,62/5,56 calibres. The Sako ammo ( Commercial Sako Packets) was on sale in Italy for Siamese Mausers as early as the 1970s, when Thailand had already surplussed its T45/66 Mausers ( I had acquired some Rifles back in 1972-3, in Aussie)

Doc AV

The “Sako” made 8x52R Ammo was more for the Surplus Market, as by that time, Thailand had changed to .30 cal and Later 7,62/5,56 calibres. The Sako ammo ( Commercial Sako Packets) was on sale in Italy for Siamese Mausers as early as the 1970s, when Thailand had already surplussed its T45/66 Mausers ( I had acquired some Rifles back in 1972-3, in Aussie)

Doc AV

Any images or further info about these packets? Seems a strange head stamp for a commercial Sako box.

I only saw the “Sako” ammo in a Gunshop in Turin. It was in a Plain “European” style Packet (20 rounds) with Printing (Black on white) very Plain in Layout…almost like the Finnish Issue ammo (7,62x54R etc). No indication on the Packet that it was for Siamese T66, just that it was 8X52r…Now at the time, I thought it might have been Finnish 8x53R (hunting calibre based on 7,62x54R case???)
But the Gunshop owner said it shot well in the Siamese Mauser…so, what was it???

It was so long ago, I can hardly remember the details…

Doc AV

That’s more info than anyone else has ever provided about these Sako Siamese packets!
Plain packets (and not the usual brighter coloured Sako packets) for this ammo does sound right for them being for the surplus market with the odd head stamp.

Regarding the type 45 cartridge in the first picture. I have a cartridge exactly like this one in my collection. I also work with a guy who is from Laos (I believe he is in his mid 50’s). So I showed it to him and asked him if he could read the headstamp on it. Now he is not a gun guy or a cartridge collector but as soon as he looked at the headstamp he said “45” and the rest would translate to something like “First Model”. He seemed quit taken back that someone would be carrying a cartridge like this around in their pocket. He was raised in Laos and firearms are pretty much forbidden over there. But I am pretty sure that his translation is fairly accurate.

I spent a day touring the Royal Thai Army Arsenal in Bangkok in 1969. They were manufacturing 30-06, and had a small experimental line making unheadstamped 38 Special, but they were also reloading these old 8x52R cases as blanks with teak wood bullets. I brought back one of these blanks and a 38 Special for the Woodin Museum.

The US Army Major who was the US advisor to the arsenal told me he had heard that the Thai Navy also manufactured ammo at a depot somewhere in the south, but didn’t know if that was true or if they only reloaded. I don’t know of any Thai manufactures from the period or earlier except the RTA. Perhaps someone else knows.

Sadly, it appears that RTA never attempted a 9mm Luger!

Cheers,
Lew

They must have greatly improved their manufacturing capacity by now…in my Tons of Milsurp Brass from Aussie ADF, I come across regularly 5,56 Long Blank, “RTA” and various recent dates (1990s,2000’s)…must be stuff used by RTA Troops on rotation through Australian Training Facilities in Queensland (Joint exercises)…similarly Singaporean and Indonesian etc.

By the 1970s, the RTA would have been filling Kynock 8x52R cases; when Kynock stopped production of Smaller calibres, large quantities of 8x52R cases were available in UK as “surplus”.

Doc AV

Doc, when I visited, I didn’t see any Kynoch cases, only cases with Thai characters. But, that was only a snapshot. They could have well also be loading Kynoch cases, particularly into the 1970s.

Would love to find a RTA hst 9x19mm fired case, or current (last 20 years) fired cases from either Singapore or Indonesia. Even photos would be appreciated.

Thanks for the info.

Cheers,
Lew