Simple 9mm question


#1

I ran across a 9mm cartridge today I had not seen before. No photo, but HS is “REM-UMC 9m/m Luger”. It has what’s probably a CN jacket, round nose bullet, with about a 1/8" hollow point hole, also has a nickeled primer. It looks much like a standard RN-FMJ bullet except for the CN bullet jacket and the hole. Anything unusual about it? I’d think it wouldn’t expand much, if at all. I almost shot it, but decided to keep it instead - it shows its age.


#2

NO.


#3

I suspect that the letters “REM-UMC” are fairly small. This is the standard hollow-point load of the period and probably dates from the mid to late 1920s to the late 1930s. Rather than CN, the bullet is more probably tinned, A tinned bullet and nickel primer were standard for the period. I don’t have a box for the HP load, but my box for the FMJ version of this cartridge is dated early 1938. This is the typical green 'dogbone" box.

I also have a box dated early 1925 showing a FMJ RN bullet which is undoubtedly the tinned bullet. This is the white label with red letters and cartridge drawing. The primer in the drawing has a U on it so your round is probably later than 1925. I received this box empty and don’t have a REM-UMC load with a tinned FMJ bullet and a U on the primer. In fact, I have never documented one. I do have a RN tinned bullet hollow point round and it has a nickelled primer with the U.

If any of you have one of these REM-UMC tinned FMJ bullet rounds, please let me know.

If you have a box with Remington RN tinned bullet rounds I’d appreciate a scan or photo including the date code stamped on the back.

The round you found is not rare, but not one that is found every day and harder to find than the older Truncated bullet Remington HP 9mm rounds.

Cheers,
Lew


#4

Yes, the headstamp lettering is smaller than usual. As to whether the bullet jacket is tinned, I cannot tell. However, the jacket is not attracted to a magnet. There is no U on the primer. I was guessing it was pre-WWII, but I did not remember seeing a 9mm cartridge with the CN (or tinned) HP bullet that looked like this one. I picked up a handful (literally) of miscellaneous old 9mm rounds at a garage sale, and this was the only one that appeared interesting. All the rest went downrange yesterday. There were five or six which appeared to have sharper-point lead bullets, at least they were not round-nosed. I am fairly sure they were not reloads. But it’s now too late to recall them for further examination.


#5

As an ordinary thing a cupro-nickel jacket has a barely off-white color while, to my eyes at least, the tinned copper jackets generally have a blue-grey cast to them. Jack


#6

Jack - I find it easier to identify cupro-nickel jackets by their slightly yellowish undertone, although your description is perfectly correct. It is that tone that makes a nickel-pklated revolver look elegant, while a chrome-plated handgun usually just looks cheap, with its stark “white” color tone. Chrome bullets look much the same (like the Czech ones for instance) - very “white” and very bright. Plain steel jackets are usually silvery-grey, but with a rather dull, unpolished look (there are exceptions, of course), and I find them hard to detect without the use of a good magnifier. Brass jackets look like - well - they look like brass! Big surprise. Sometimes age and wear can make it hard to tell copper from brass, though, in the small areas covered by small arms ammo projectiles or primer cups.


#7

I think the only Rem-UMC CN bullets I have are the early Truncated FMJ and HP. The later Truncated loads are tinned as are the pre-WWII RN bullets. I don’t think I have a RN Remington CN bullet, and am sure I don’t have one that is Pre-WWII.

If the tinned bullet is a bit worn then the jacket material shows through a bit and can look a bit like a CN. When I have pulled these out slightly they are obviously tinned.

Cheers,
Lew


#8

I agree with Lew. I have not seen any CN RN FMJ bullet on Remington 9 mm that I can recall. Only early truncated. The bullets were tinned for a long time, and then they switched to GM. I won’t get into things like the brass “Golden Saber” loads, as they are special cases made long after the era in question.


#9

DennisK, Today I ran across a box of cartridges in GunBroker that look to be the same cartridge. Unfortunately, for me, the seller is asking about four times what I think the box is worth, but who knows, maybe he will get lucky. You can see the box at:

gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt … =354219743

I read the stamp on the back of the box as “J31S” which i think translates to the first half of 1934 for a load date.

Maybe another Forum reader would like this box more than I would! If so, good luck with it.

Cheers,
Lew


#10

Yep, that is exactly the same bullet appearance as mine. Odd that the box label shows a decimal point ahead of the “9m/m”.


#11

The condition of the lead on those cartridges shown in the auction is very nice given their age. That box must have been in a sealed environment with little temperature shift.


#12

So teach me how this works: please put the following REM-UMC 9m/m Luger cartridges in chronological order oldest-to-newest:

  1. small letters, truncated cone hollow-point GM bullet, nickeled primer with impressed U
  2. small letters, truncated cone hollow-point tinned GM bullet, copper primer with impressed U
  3. small letters, round-nose FMJ tinned GM bullet, nickeled primer, from box with lot “13 B S” (13 January 1925 - thank you Richard Fraser)
  4. larger letters, round-nose FMJ GM bullet, nickeled primer

#13

dArtagnan–#1 and #2 should be reversed. The nickled primers started in 1922 or 1923.