Snider Cartridge[s] Drawing[s]?

I am looking for the drawings and specifications for Snider .577 [.58 Caliber] cartridges, and recently dicovered there are at least 5 distinctly different cases, one similar to [identicle to?] the .577, or possibly closer to a .577/.450 [where the shoulder is], to a tapered straight wall cartridge, and lengths from 1.5 inches to 2.75 Inches and possibly longer, one that appears to be slightly tapered with a hint of a shoulder, somewhat as if one were to lengthen a .44-40 cartridge.

I have found a few pictures, some questionable as to authenticity, but no reliable dimentional dwarings, or certainty as to the cartridge[s], and no timeframe for what appears to be dimentional or design changes.

To make it more conusing, some people use a 20 ga. hull, from 2 inch to 2.5 inch long, with a round ball or short conical, while others say a brass 24 Gauge brass cartridge is correct.

I recently aquired a Snider, Enfield-Snider conversion, or commercial Snider, the version of which I still need to do much research. Just now I am simply attempting to gather information on the cartridge, or series of cartridges, or modifications of cartridges, for the Snider.

… and desperately trying to figure out where the heck I put at least three blocks of Cerrosafe…

This image of shot cartridges is from The Cartridge Collectors web site, THE CARTRIDGE COLLECTOR, for the comparison of cartridge shapes. Using a small mirror, my chamber looks like the two on the far right…

Here is an image from Joe Salter web site:
“Lot of 5 different Snider cartridges 577 caliber. 1. Snider brown cardboard with 2nd cup. 2. Snider Canadian 2nd pattern 1886, no paper cover with coiled brass body. 3. Eley 2 3/4” 577 commercial express. 4. Coiled case with 1/2" cup. 5. Earl cardboard cover with 1/4" cup… "
image

Thanks all, in advance, and please forgive spelling/typing problems.

Snider Barrels were marked “25”,being the Bore Gauge for .577" ( .58 in US terms).
This meant that a Snider chamber was 24 gauge. ie, 24 ga.shotshell
(Either plastic or more appropriately, Brass ( CBC-Magtech).
Those using 20 gauge shells are the Converted Gaol Carbines, smoothbored to commercial ( paper) 20 gauge
Shotshells.
I use CBC brass 24ga. Cases, trimmed and sized, for loading correct Snider Bullets ( Not Enfield 577 Minies).
The same goes for making .450 MH cases from 24ga. BRASS.
( Trim to 60mm, Anneal, size by steps, final trim to 60mm).
Prior to trimming etc, I fit an internal base re-inforement cup, as in the original composite head case, of cupped brass tube, to strengthen the head of the case ( a thin, folded head design). This cup is a press fit around the balloon head primer cup, and also held by the shoulder of the Snider and MH cases.
We will be producing strengthened Snider and MH cases from 24ga. CBC brass as soon as Covid calms down.
Doc AV
AVB TechServices
Brisbane Australia

577’s are known in the British Snider, Turkish Snider & the Canadian version. Oh & the Chinese (made by SFM), G, Roth & the Portuguese made drawn brass cases. (Not counting the English or modern makers)

Coiled / rolled / Boxer straight case 577’s come in at least 7 (perhaps more) case lengths counting the Snider. (for rifles ) Then there were also Howdah pistol & the 577 revolver Boxer cased examples

Doc is 100% correct 24 Ga. & the Canadians for a very short time, offered paper-hulled shot shells with a beveled rim to function in the multitude of shot out Snider’s. A very hard shell to find these days.

DocAV4901 & PetedeCoux,

I happen to have a new box of Magtech unprimed 24 gauge brass cartridges… And the mind goes crazy with possibilities! I was advised to use small pistol primers, which makes sense from a pressure standpoint.

Doc, can you post an image of the re-inforced cup?
How important is it in modern brass cartridges?
Or do you do that simply for authticity?

Thanks very much!

Dear Jack, the CBC cases were originally 6,45mm Copper Berdan primed, then with the shift to Export Us etc sales, all their Brass Shotshells changed over to Boxer Primer Pockets ( Large Pistol)…these being soft cups and sufficient priming compound to ignite either Black or Smokeless loads.
The Inner Cup I developed is similar in concept to the original iron reinforcement cup used in original Iron and Cardboard and Brass foil rolled cases.( Boxer’s Patent).
The CBC shotgun cases have a Thin, Folded Head, with Balloon Primer Cavity. Use in Snider and Especially M-H cases has occasionally led to head or rim splits, esp. With Smokeless Powders, or heavy BP loads.

From my work in making Long Profile Blanks for Film/ Re-enactment use ( esp. MGs), by fitting a case- full lenght inner tube, and the tube coming in to encircle the Flash hole in modern solid head cases in Forming up, I translated that to making a domed “cup” by swaging K&S brass tube (.014" wall) over a rounded end mandrel to the inner contours of the CBC 24ga. Shell, leaving a central hole for the Balloon Primer Pocket to penetrate the cup. FIRST trials were made by Spinning over the Tube on a domed mandrel to get the cup shape, then cutting to lenght, and press fitting to the inside of the case.
Final forming of the case ( S or MH) locked the cup in place, from Shoulder to Head.
( note similar system with US 45/70 cases ( copper, 1870s) folded head, inside Primer); cup held by outside cannelure crimp.)

I am now developing a simpler system, using Dies and Mandrel-ram, in RCBC Big 50 press, to both Swage the tube to cup shape, and press fit to case, during Forming down case to final Dimensions.
Will make an economical and stronger case than plain 24ga cases, and more economical than Turned or Solid Drawn cases.

Covid Permitting, should be ready by Xmas. ( have to get correct, pre- cut tubing from K&S, Illinois, USA)

Doc AV
PS, this is a Case Engineering Matter, not Reloading Advice!!!

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I have seen a few photos of the original cases you mention, mostly shot down through the top of the case, and maybe a sectioned case or two, but I do not have any images on this computer.

I can sort of “see” what you are describing, but I am still a bit blank on the form.

If you get a chance, I would be very interested to see photos of your inserts before instalation. I am thinking it might be a neat thing from a historical standpoint to make a few modern cases that way with, and without, the insert sectioned for diplay. Mostly because a modern shell with the insert is much less expensive than a scarce, rare, original cartridge.

Dear Jack,
Thankyou for your interesting suggestions.
We will be making a " Draw set" of our process, in order to illustrate it on our Website for Potential users.
Regards, and stay well,
Doc AV

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Jack,

attached a drawing from a technical booklet dated 1970.
This shows the Mk.5, there were of course several later Mks. up to Mk.9

Jim

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I am hoping you meant 1870:wink:

That is the type of stuff I am looking for, any chance you have any others?

I am hoping for a “complete set”, as it were.

Thanks!

Jack,

Yes that should read 1870 - another senior moment on my behalf.
I do have more,
shall I post them here or send to you direct as email attachments.
Jim

Post here please Jim. Why should Jack have all the fun?

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Some Sniders to look at the contents is on a list of the back of
the case I cannot photograph it
Sherryl![IMG_0753|690x920](upload://kYW![IMG_0753|690x920](upload://kY



WKMb0AlpiNyEuPyOmMsC4D8ds.jpeg)
KMb0AlpiNyEuPyOmMsC4D8ds.jpeg)

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Jack,
Scanner is currently down, but should be fixed shortly - in the meantime here are some pics ! I already did of the blanks.
Jim



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Jack,

Scanner still not working but here is another drawing a Mk7. with dimensions.

Jim

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Jim, all of the images are MUCH appreciated!
Jack

Jack,

more to follow shortly.

I have owned a number of Snider rifles and carbines and I used to shoot them with modern turned brass cases by Jim Goodwin? of the North Devon Firearm Services.

Jim

Jack,

Scanner is now working, these pics are from the Treatise on Ammunition 1878 .



Jim

more to follow.

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Jack.

An odd one.

Jim

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Thanks, Jim!
Do you know what the balls were encapsulated in?
Any idea when they went to the once-piece cartridge?
That is to say without the two larger “rings” at the base of the cartridge.

Jack,

couple more of the Mks.



Jim

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