Some 303

Nothing unusual about the 0ld D.C.CO hunting round except the L-M wich stands for
lee Metfort The Kynoch one with the SL stamp is a Experimental loading for mark 7+8
ball loadings with Lead Styphnate.From the the 2 blanks Vickers+ Bren not to many were loaded and I think they were Experimental.
Sherryl

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In the case of the Lee Metford round, the name ends with “d.” The Kynoch .303 S.L. I don’t believe was experimental. I cannot comment on the “Lead Styphnate” as I know nothing about that, but the “S.L.” on the headstamp indicates the “Streamlined bullet,” I believe. To my knowledge, these were basically target or match loads.

Again with the blanks with blue wood bullets, I do not believe they were experimental. In "The Military .303 Cartridge, Its History and Variations (Revised Edition), author Lynn H. Harris, of New Zealand (R.I.P.) indicates they were theatrical blanks. Their are headstamps specifically for three different machine guns - Bren, Lewis and Vickers. When I had a .303 collection, I had all three, and recall have dupes from time to time in at least the Bren and Vickers headstamps. In the cartridges with the “Bren” headstamp, I also had two variations with only a top-sealing, dark-lacquered wad. One had an unsealed primer and another had a Purple primer seal. I am going by my catalog for the .303 collection, which I retained when I sold the collection.

Regardless of their purpose or scarcity, all five of the rounds you mention have lovely headstamps. Nice photos, too. Thanks for posting.

John Moss

Bren%20%26%20Vickers%20blank%20boxes%20

Your 2 Wooden Blanks are basically an LMk10z blank with the Machine Gun Name on the headstamp that were produced for the movies, I have heard that there were slight differences in the loading due to the 3 different machine guns they were manufactured for, but I have never seen any proof. These are very common rounds in the UK and definitely not experimental. Your Kynoch .303 SL is a Match ball round with a 175grn Streamlined bullet not a Lead Styphnate primed round, I will attach a headstamp photo for the Lead Styphnate round below.303%20LS%20headstamp%20Lead%20Styphnate%20primer

A question regarding the D.C.CO L-M .303 round, was this originally a military ball loading or are they a commercial cartridge, I ask because I have seen them with a CN Mk2/6 type bullet.

thanks
Richard

Nice L.S. headstamp Richard.
I have the L-M headstamp by D.C.Co. with CN MK 7 style, copper tipped spitzer, hollow point, gallery & soft nose plus the below match loading, and the Lewis blank HS to complete the cinema headstamps. My THOUGHTS are it was not military but according to Arms & Accoutrements of the Mounted Police 1873-1973 [pg 89] by R. Phillips & D. Klancher in Feb of 1902 the ammunition batches received from England were faulty and so 100,000 rounds were received by the N.W.M.P. from militia department stores in Victoria & Winnipeg (50,000 rnds. from each). So it depends on how you classify the Police if military or not?


Lewis%20blank%20hs

Lewis - thanks for the confirmation of the information I submitted, and for filling in the holes. I used to be really up on .303, but it has been many, many years since I sold that collection.
Really nice box pictures! I don’t recall seeing those before. I never had one of those boxes in my collection.

I never even heard of the Radway Green cartridge with “LS” on the headstamp. Great photo and info.

Pete - thanks for showing that match load in a Lewis gun blank shell casing. I assume it was a case of simply using available components for a short run of that ammo?

John Moss

Note to peashooter
If you go to the back of Labatts book the 303 you will find otherwise the stamp you show
is not the only one with SL besides look closely at the pic and you will see that the lower case
bottem is specially colored and at the same time there is a page about the testing of the vickers
and Bren gun blanks.
Sherryl

Pete, Police is a civilian entity and no military.

Peashooter

DCCo loaded MkVI ammo with the LM hs. These were listed in their catalogue and so designated.

I’d like to re-post Fede’s picture from my topic about Canadian Lee-Metford .303 Canadian Lee-Metford
image

Sherryl, I suggest you are confusing L.S. and S.L. Both appear on .303 headstamps but have very different meanings. L.S. means the cartridge has an experimental Lead Styphanate primer. The lower part of these cartridges is not blackened. S.L means Streamlined and these are a comparitively common match grade cartridge. These cartridges have the lower part blackened. Your cartridge is S.L…streamlined.

TALKING ofthe shipment of British made .303 Mk II shipped to Canada in 1900-02, andfoundto be
faulty, this lot was subsequently
“recapped” live, with the defective primers Milled out, cold, and pockets cleansed, before recapping
With new primers. .250 Berdan.
From accounts, only acouple of cartridges detonatedduringthe milling operation.
Detail mentioned in an earlier posting here ( several months ago)

Doc AV

Jim
as you see on the pic it says SL and the bottom quarter part of the cartridge is browned that is how I
tripped over it and yes the Stypanite referes to the primer composition they were tests however
the Stypanite and the cordite in the cases did not coroborate the result was heavy muzzle flush
and things were abandoned.Where is that bullet streamlined??
Sherryl

This is an after tought
The L= in that stamp stands for lead so one producer uses LS (LEAD STYPANITE)
another uses SL=(STYPANITE LEAD)

In 1938 trial were cunducted with bulleted blanks for Vickers and Bren guns
in various colors,red,purple,green,and black all were loaded differently
with chopped cordite all 4 broke their safty screens and tests were abandoned
and plastic bullets bullets were tryed These wooden bullets are considered
dangerous.
Sherryl

from Temple, B.A. (1986). Identification Manual on the .303 British Service Cartridge. No:1 - Ball Ammunition (pp 76-77):

“…the “S.L.” code of which denoted a “Stream Lined” bullet. A comparison of this design and a Mark VIIIZ ball will show that if it was not the immediate forerunner of that service pattern, then one of them certainly had some influence on the development of the other.”

No sorry both Headstamps in Labbetts .303 book on page 227 show L.S. the Mk7 reads clockwise round RG 45 7 L.S. and the Mk8 Reads 12 oclock, 8oclock and 4 oclock K.45 8Z you are reading the Mk7 wrong it is not S.L.
As for “where is that bullet streamlined” here is a drawing of the streamlined bullet
BK.141 135A .303 Streamline Bullet 1936-7 Pattern.pdf (935.8 KB)
I also have earlier dated drawings of the bullet if you would like to see more.

As for the 1938 Trials they were what would become the Cartridge S.A. Blank .303 inch L Mark VII the Kynoch movie blanks you show are a copy of the Cartridge S.A. Blank .303 inch L Mark 10z

Richard.

Hi John
To clarify: the match load has the DCCo 303 L-M headstamp & the Lewis headstamp was to show the missing headstamp from Sheryl’s post. No conection between the two other than .303". And those were my box photos.

Hi Aex
I understand that. I mentioned that because some collectors consider them to be of the same sort of round origin-purpose, and was asking a rhetorical question, about how the individual collector considered it to be when filing it…

Virtually all blanks are considered dangerous within a certain distance. Especially most movie blanks. You may remember the actor Bruce Lee was killed with a movie blank.