Some new cartridges, and a couple of questions

[USSubs]

Had the opportunity to pick up some new items Saturday, I’ll finish sorting them out next week but have a couple questions now. First is a .45 with an unusual headstamp. It has an RA, but no date, and seems to have a very weak stamp where the date should be, but upside down. I read “ONCOP”, then just blur. Just a bunter problem? Doesn’t seem there should be other letters if it were - ?

Then an unusual .303 cutaway. I suppose this could have been done by a collector, but it is very well done. Maybe from a board?

I also found what I initially thought were .45 blanks, but they appear to be made from 7.62mm brass. Is this commonly done?

I found a few of the Western Whitehouse blanks and included it because the previous thread doesn’t show the headstamp or round, and I included a box of Argentine spotters, just because I like it.

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[EOD]

@USSubs

First is a .45 with an unusual headstamp. It has an RA, but no date, and seems to have a very weak stamp where the date should be, but upside down. I read “ONCOP”, then just blur. Just a bunter problem? Doesn’t seem there should be other letters if it were - ?

I see RA 41 and then what appears to be an over stamp. I would think from a reloading company.

[USSubs]

I can see what you are talking about on the 41, but I’m not 100%. The entire lower half of the headstamp is extremely faint, it took me about 10 photos - adjusting angle and light - until I was able to get something that I would adjust enough in photoshop to see this clearly. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a reloading company that re-stamped/overstamped brass? At least for the last 40 years or so all I’ve seen is mixed lots of original headstamps. If so, does anyone know what company?

[TimG]

A number of years ago at UK ECRA meetings, .45 blanks made from Radway Green L5A3 (iirc) cases were quite common. I was reliably informed by the late Tony Edwards that they had been made for the film industry.

[Forensic]

I made huge amounts of the .45ACP under use of SAKO and Lapua new cases for a german movie (Deutschland erwache) , as I had to fabricate from the longer cases a “stop” at the casemouth to work properly in submachine guns. A normal made blank -like the shown nickelplated case ones-, where not working, as the heavy slide moves the blanks into the chamber too far, to ignite them. The smgs had too long throats to give them hold, without that extra crimp form at the mouth…
pp

[Daan]

The “badly done” headstamp was by CONCORD RELOADS. You can find the info here:
http://www.cartridgecollector.net/45-acp

Regards
Daan

[JohnMoss]

As can be seen in the article referenced by Daan, Concord Manufacturing Corp., Massapequa, New York took over the company of Palmer Manufacturing Corp, of New York, the latter having had a plant at Hicksville, New York, and offices in NYC, probably on Long Island. Palmer was listed in the 1943 New York City Directory, at 60 E. 42nd Street. I do not know NYC at all, so not sure if that address would be on Long Island, or not.

Below is a picture of a Palmer box for .45 Automatic Reloads. The scratch-out line in the lower-right corner of the box said “Hicksville, L. I.” which is why I think their offices was on Long Island. That line maybe referring to their two locations, factory in Hicksville and offices in Long Island. Perhaps one of our New Yorkers can either support that opinion, or correct me if I am wrong. The Palmer Box shown was filled with “CONCORD RELOAD”-headstamp rounds. That maybe why the entry on the top label mentioned here was scratched out. These Palmer boxes are also found with overlabels (green color is specifically mentioned in some sources) with the the Conord name and the Massapequa address.

There was some sort of investigation at the time because there was question about where they were obtaining very currently-dated US Military brass casings - remember, we are speaking of the WWII years here - but I don’t have any details on that situation.

I have never seen a box printed specifically and only for the Concord Manufacturing Corp., and for the “CONCORD RELOADS”-headstamped .45 ammunition. If anyone has one, or even one of the Concord over-labeled boxes, a picture of it here would be welcomed.

John Moss

[JohnMoss]

Does anyone have any information on that WESTERN WHT HOUSE headstamp. It appears to be a .45 Automatic-caliber blank, although there isn’t much extractor groove and it seems to have a rim, so perhaps it is a revolver cartridge. No caption, so it is a guess and a gosh what it is. I have never seen or heard of such a headstamp before, on anything. I assume the headstamp refers to the Presidential Residence, although I don’t know that to be sure.

To me, it is far and away the most interesting of the cartridges shown, even if it is NOT .45 auto, but rather for a revolver.

Edit to remove faulty comments.

John Moss

[Dan]

Hi John,
Why do you think it’s a ,380 blank, and not a .45 ACP?
OK, extractor groove. Bill thought revolver. He has it and will check.
Dan
I was told: “It is a 45 Colt with undercut rim…”

[PetedeCoux]

I’ve not seen an over labeled Concords box but here are two Palmer boxes one with the Hickville name & the other (with the same printing), which seems to be part of a Winchester infringement matter.

The petal crimped Cal.45 blanks are very like the examples found the the Special Thompson boxes I posted in: 9x19 mm Blanc headstamp LC 88, but with dots - #26 by Jaco

The sectioned .303" if for a board iI would think it would have mounting holes, What does the base look like.- the primer

[JohnMoss]

Dan - I don’t know why I thought those were .380. On second examination I agree 100% with you that they are .45s. Still have never heard of or seen the “White House” round.
The mistaken identification of the those two cartridges points to the problem of photos of cartridges with insufficient information in the captions or text, although I readily admit that I prefer clean photos of cartridges, not cluttered up with fingers, hands, items for size comparison, etc. That’s why it is good to caption each single photo to include cartridge ID.

I am going to edit my text on the Western White House round. My thoughts on it totally ignored the likelihood that the “WESTERN” was the brand, and not likely any reference to the Western residences of any President of the US. Write that one off to simple hallucination on my part.

John Moss

[USSubs]

Additional information was not included on that cartridge because, as mentioned in the opening post, the cartridge was pretty well covered in a previous thread, just without any pictures of the round or headstamp. Headstamp help-45 Auto Rim

Pete, OK, not a cartridge board piece, but you get my meaning. It is much more professionally done than many of the cutaways we see (not you Paul) and seems more like a factory piece. But for a known or typical purpose?

[PetedeCoux]

I take your point Jeff. That appears to be a live round & it may well have been done of a show & tell by the arsenal, but I’m also sure their are plenty of folks who have milling machine & can do just as nice a job.

Canada & the British did work with tip filler material. It is possible this was done to illustrate this kind & how much filler.

I do have to admit the bullet does seem to have a very light crimp at the mouth. Is it at all loose?

[gyrojet]

nice box made/loaded in The Netherlands in Dordrecht by Hirtenberger for export to Argentina.
year is 1929

[JohnKindred]

I’m inclined to agree with Pete, about it being an example to show the point filler, but factory or not we may never know.
A close look at the neck appears to have the three segmented crimps about half way down, so less likely to have been pulled. Enlarge in photoshop to see what I mean.

[PetedeCoux]

Saw the three crimps but still felt the gap between the bullet & case mouth looked too big.

Jeff
probably don’t have tp tell tou what the rounds are in the box, but on the odd chance…Do not drop or use an inertia bullet puller.

[USSubs]

It is three crimps, and the bullet is tight.

Pete, thanks, yes, I’ve got a few others, plus some fool’s bullet puller example. I’d never seen a box though, and the price was good, so I decided that I needed it. I’m tempted to remove most of the ammo, it is just too heavy and the rounds too sharp on the point for the continued survival of the box. I don’t know how common the boxes are? This is the only one I’ve seen, but I may simply have not recognized them previously.

[USSubs]

Here are a few more items from last weekend that may be of interest.

Another box, but this one with only one round.

This was described as a “tool cartridge”, perhaps an aircraft CAD?

And this last piece. The markings state: 12 GA .22, Shell Shrinker MFG. Co., Lubbock, TX. Anyone have any idea on a date?

[USSubs]

I spoke too soon. Found this on an internet search, from Feb 1970 Field and Stream Magazine. How did we ever survive without Google?

[Kevin]

Wow. Semi-accurate out to a yard I bet.