Some RF


#1

From left to right :

  1. 52 Sharps & Hankins
  2. 58 Montstorm
  3. 58 Joslyn
  4. 58 Chabot
  5. 58 Mountain Gatling
  6. 58 Gatling
    (all that if I remember well !)

This is the kind of staff I like.
I only have a few big RF calibers, so if somebody has some to sell I am interested.

jp


#2

Jean-Pierre,

Nice collection of larger caliber American Rimfires!!

The first item appears to me to be a 54 Starr (also called by some a 56 Starr). Its hard to say without dimensions. This is much rarer than a 52 Sharps and Hankins. The second one has been called a 58 Montstorm for years. Currently some thinks it’s a 58 Roberts. In John Barber’s he called it a Storm/Roberts. The 58 Mountain Gatling is also known as the 58 Gatling Short.

These different names and identification is what makes rimfire collecting interesting and at the same time frustrating!

Paul


#3

Good to see some rimfire action on the forum.


#4

[quote=“rimfire”]Jean-Pierre,

Nice collection of larger caliber American Rimfires!!

The first item appears to me to be a 54 Starr (also called by some a 56 Starr). Its hard to say without dimensions. This is much rarer than a 52 Sharps and Hankins. The second one has been called a 58 Montstorm for years. Currently some thinks it’s a 58 Roberts. In John Barber’s he called it a Storm/Roberts. The 58 Mountain Gatling is also known as the 58 Gatling Short.

These different names and identification is what makes rimfire collecting interesting and at the same time frustrating!

Paul[/quote]
I agree, sure looks like a Starr rather than an S&H type!! M.Rea


#5

Here is the drawing of the first ctge.
JP


#6

jean-pierre,

Nice Drawing!

That does match closely to a 54 Starr. This was used in the American Civil War Starr Carbine. Since the 56/56 Spencer cartridge would chamber in the Starr, the Army quickly abandoned the Starr cartridge if favor of the more readly available 56/56 Spencer cartridge thus making this rather hard to find today.

Paul


#7

[quote=“rimfire”]jean-pierre,
Nice Drawing!
That does match closely to a 54 Starr.
Paul[/quote]

Hi Paul,

The drawing is not from me but from my friend Jacques Barlerin.
He used to draw every ctge of my collection

Are you 100 % sure it is a Starr ???
I thought it also but when I showed this drawing to a good friend expert in RF, he said : no, this is a 56-52 Spencer.

What are factory dimensions of a 54 Starr ?
JP


#8

Hi !
About N


#9

Hello Jean-Pierre,

Yes, I still think your cartridge #1 is a Starr. I don’t have any factory dimension for the Starr. A number of years ago I purchase a “Starr” from a well respected auction house. The dimensions of my cartridge are very close to the ones you posted. Also your dimension match those listed in Barber’s “The Rimfire Cartridge” and as well as those listed in Hoyem’s “The History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition”.

The dimension of the 52 Spencer vary widely. The case length is usually shorter than yours. The case has a slight bottle neck or much more taper from head to mouth than the one in the drawing. The bullet is usually flat tipped or more rounded, The pointed 2 groove bullet on your’s is typical of all the CD Leet Starr cartriges I’ve seen.

As for the .58 Chabot. I’m not sure what it is. The only picture of a “58 Chabot” I have been able to find is in Suydam’s “The American Cartridge”. The dimensions given there are almost identical to those listed for the various 58 Musket cartridges he had pictured. In George Hoyem’s “The History and Developement of Small Arms Ammunition” he states “The .58 caliber Allin, Springfield or Miller probably was used in the Chabot, Needham and other experimental transformed rifle-musket tried out after the Civil War”. John Barber didn’t even mention a .58 Cabot in his book. Is there actually a 58 Chabot cartridge or did this conversion use the standard 58 musket? I don’t know!

The dimension of the 58 Musket cartridges in my collection match pretty close to the one you pictured except the rim diameter on mine are only about 18.0 mm verse the 18.8mm on your’s.

Paul


#10

[quote=“rimfire”]Hello Jean-Pierre,

Yes, I still think your cartridge #1 is a Starr. I don’t have any factory dimension for the Starr. A number of years ago I purchase a “Starr” from a well respected auction house. The dimensions of my cartridge are very close to the ones you posted. Also your dimension match those listed in Barber’s “The Rimfire Cartridge” and as well as those listed in Hoyem’s “The History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition”.

The dimension of the 52 Spencer vary widely. The case length is usually shorter than yours. The case has a slight bottle neck or much more taper from head to mouth than the one in the drawing. The bullet is usually flat tipped or more rounded, The pointed 2 groove bullet on your’s is typical of all the CD Leet Starr cartriges I’ve seen.

As for the .58 Chabot. I’m not sure what it is. The only picture of a “58 Cabot” I have been able to find is in Suydam’s “The American Cartridge”. The dimensions given there are almost identical to those listed for the various 58 Musket cartridges he had pictured. In George Hoyem’s “The History and Developement of Small Arms Ammunition” he states “The .58 caliber Allin, Springfield or Miller probably was used in the Cabot, Needham and other experimental transformed rifle-musket tried out after the Civil War”. John Barber didn’t even mention a .58 Cabot in his book. Is there actually a 58 Cabot cartridge or did this conversion use the standard 58 musket? I don’t know!

The dimension of the 58 Musket cartridges in my collection match pretty close to the one you pictured except the rim diameter on mine are only about 18.0 mm verse the 18.8mm on your’s.

Paul[/quote]

Thanks a lot !!!
Hum , you looks like to know very well the RF rounds !!
Do you know also the European RF ???
JP


#11

Very interesting thread.


#12

[quote]jean-pierre Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:24 pm


Paul

Thanks a lot !!!

Do you know also the European RF ??? [/quote]

Hi Jean-Pierre,

I collect all types of rimfires, American or European. The only limiting factor for my collecting is the small amount of cash in my wallet!

I don’t have a lot of refernece material of British and European rimfires which mades collecting them more difficult. Are you aware of any books in this area?

When I get my photographic skills perfected I have a number or European RF cartridges I would like to post on the Forum to find out a little more info on them.

Paul


#13

Hi Paul !
I have no book on European Rim-Fire.

I know pretty well :

  • the Flobert Rimfire : French and European (My book will talk about them)
  • the RF rounds made by SFM (French, British, and US calibers).
    because I have all the factory drawings.

Except that, all I know is coming from classic books (Datig, Hoyem, aso) and from catalogues.
JP


#14

54 Starr rimfires are quite common over here in New Zealand. We are known for collecting up bits and pieces from all over the world and hoarding things.
There were a number of rifles and a large quantity of ammunition turn up in the South Island of New Zealand where the were used to shoot seals (I am totally serious) on the Otago coast only a few hours drive south from where I live. Its amazing what turns up in strange corners of the world
I hear they are quite a valuable cartridge in the US. I have a small number of examples travelling over to the US in a couple of months.