Some Stramge 9x19mms


#1

I thought the members would find these rounds interesting. They are like nothing I have seen before.


From Left to Right:

Brass Drill??? 196.5gr oaw. I initially thought this was another British turned brass drill, but I weighed the three British turned brass drills in my collection and all were 230gr - 235gr. I cannot be positive that the primer is carved in the base, and the “bullet” connection with the “Case” looks like they may be seperate. I am pretty confidenti it is a drill, but am stumped beyond this

Homemade SP! This one is easier. It is clearly an Italian 9M38 with the tip cut off and four slits filed in the bullet. the image clearly shows that the bullet groove was cut with the bullet in place, however the other three bullet grooves are much better cut. A first reaction is that this could be one of the “Super Bullets” that are offered in the US.

UK%20unks-2018-tip

The third round looks like a cast bullet with the white mold line continuing across the bullet tip and down the far side of the bullet. I can’t make any sense out of what is written on it. The tip appears to be painted white and the texture is very rough on the bullet. No ejector marks on the rim that I can see so it may not be a reloaded case. The OAW of this round is 142.6gr so the bullet weight is about 76gr.

The final one is headstamped “K57 9MM2Z”. The half black base would indicate a proof load by either the London or perhaps the Birmingham proof house. but the reason for the cast lead bullet painted red is unknown! This round weighs 192gr so the bullet weight is roughly 126gr.

I don’t expect any definitive information on any of these, but perhaps someone had seen something similar.

Cheers,
Lew


#2

Lew, #3 reads “Anti Hijacker Aircraft”?


#3

Lew, could #3 be a Zinc bullet?


#4

EOD,

I should have included the overall weights (OAW) for the two rounds on the right above. I have added them to that post. I have also shown them below. Since a brass case with powder and primer is roughly 66gr then the approximate bullet weights are as shown below.

Anti Hijack round-142.8gr so bullet is roughly 76gr. This is probably consistent with a Zinc bullet. I wish someone had some idea on this one. I suspect it is British made.

Red bullet-192g so bullet is roughly 126gr.

Cheers,
Lew


#5

The ‘Anti Hijacker Aircraft’, (about the same weight as the Glaser Safety Slug), a frangible round?
I vaguely recall the name.
I would love to see an X-Ray…


#6

Jack,
Glad it looks familiar to you. Hope you remember the name.

I doubt an X-Ray would show anything since there is a mold line vertically up both sides of the bullet and across the tip, under the white paint. If it was molded it seems unlikely that it has any internal structure that would show up on an X-ray.

It is interesting that the bullet ogive is similar to some other British loads with special bullets. Round under discussion is on the right! Note the writing on it actually says “EXP ANTI HIJACKER AIRCRAFT”, whatever that actually means.

Cheers,
Lew

image


#7

Cool, what is the difference between the 2nd from right, and far left?


#8

I should have included the bullet weights.

From the left the weights are
:
156gr - 131gr - 186.5gr - 151gr - 143gr

The two you asked about have different headstamps (H & F) and NEVINS). The two bullets may have different compositions, causeing the different weights, or the cases may differ by 5gr. Both came from an old collection and have different, but sequential, index numbers on them. So, I don’t really know the difference, but will keep them both.

the company that probably made these is OTEC Special Products Ltd, Godalming, Surry, UK. They used both H&F and NEVIN cases as well as one that is just “9mm Luger” that looks to me like it is made by IMI. This is the headstamp on the middle round. The spotted bullet round has a GFL headstamp and the White tip has a HI-PER headstamp.

HI-PER headstamps also show up on two rounds in my collection with similar bullets which came out of the Royal Ordnance Factory Enfield in 1986. These may actually be OETC. They are also very similar to the white tip bullet on the far right. I have pictured them the three of them below.

image

From the left the weights are: 145.5gr - 146.6gr and the white tip is 142.6gr. My note on these two rounds is that the were made for a special police unit and were likely powdered lead and epoxy. the round on the far lefthas a note on it that reads “Met Police London”. This round has a mold line that looks identical to that on the white tip round. They are pretty clearly all part of the same effort. Jack, your questions caused me to look into my collection and there was the answer. The white tip round, like the others at the top of this post were recent acquisition and not yet logged into the collection.

Cheers,
Lew


#9

Lew, I understand these are frangibles for the London police?


#10

EOD,
Actually I don’t know. This whole subject is very confusing and complicated. Based on its marking, one of the rounds apparently was made for the Metropolitan Police in London, or given the cast bullets, it may have been made by them!

The only wrritten information on this subject that I can recall is by Peter Labbett in his book on the History and Development of the 9x19mm in the UK from 1919-1996. On pages 26 & 27 he discusses the SPARTEN (Special Practice Ammunition for Realistic Training Enfield) and later changed to ROTA (Royal Ordnance Training Ammunition) as a joint development of RG and Enfield. He describes it as training ammunition for use on fighting ranges which gave no ricochets or splashback. He also says that commercial boxes of RG 9mm ROTA ammunition were described as frangible.

When these type composite bullets first began showing up, all with the blunt ogive shown on the images above, I was told that at least some of them were intended for tactical use as non-penetrating, non-sparking rounds for use by Special Operations and Special Police units on the North Sea oil platforms. I also have an example that has a bullet made of a ceramic composite material that was intended specifically to be penetrating, but probably non-sparking. This information came from a number of British sources that were well known experts at the time as well as an SAS source.

The Royal Ordnance Factory at Enfield Lock closed in 1988, and at that time a number of the engineers working on these composite bullet designs went off on their own and formed or became associated with private companies interested in marketing this ammunition. I think I have examples from three or four of these companies.

Identifying the source of these cartridges is essentially impossible. The identification I use in my collection is generally based on where the rounds were found (for example, Enfield or RG), In most cases I acquired these rounds directly from individuals who liberated. Since it is extremely likely that RG and Enfield also tested each others bullets this approach almost certainly misidentifies some rounds. In example, it appears that some of the privately developed rounds were tested by one ROF or another, One of my rounds originated at ROF Chorley, and may be one of these privately developed rounds.

There were enough fingers in the pie and enough potential applications that who made what and why is impossible for me to sort out. Perhaps someone else has more information.

Cheers,

Lew


#11

Lew, ok, so due to the many players and institutions it is hard to tell.
At least it is good to have it narrowed down and that you after all are able to document it with specimen.
Thank you for sharing images and knowledge!


#12

I have had some time to dig into some of the 9mm in my post #5 and would like to share what I have found and/or suspect.

First deals with the middle round of the five. The blunt bullet shape looks like the British ROTA (Royal Ordnance Training Ammunition) type rounds discussed above including the ones that are apparently associated with the Metropolitan Police. The headstamp which is just “9mm LUGAR” which is also found on some of the ROTA type rounds made by OTEC. When I looked at the bullet under a glass, I was surprised to see a mold line like the one with the white tip in the first post implying a cast bullet. So I put it in the scanner on 6x and the result is below!

OTEC-Cu%20Blt

It looks case and copper plated perhaps since what I thought were corroded spots looks like spots where the copper plate is nicked exposing the lead underneath. This round looks like it belongs to the set of three Met Police rounds in post #8, but the headstamp could mean it was made by OTEC. The weight is a bit heavier than the Met Police rounds at about 186gr rather than about 145gr.

I’m trying to sort out these ROTA style rounds, but I remain confused. If anyone has information beyond that published by Peter Labbett, please let me know.

Cheers,
Lew


#13

The second round I have looked at harder today is the one on the far left in the top post. It looks like a turned brass dummy (far left below) But!!! I compared it to three British turned brass dummies that all have cavities in the base (three on the right) which all weigh between 229gr to 235grs each so they are all about 17% heavier thab the round on the left yet all have a base cavity and generally look like they have less volume based on the bullet ogive. The round engraved P225 is a Swiss dummy which has a more shallow home in the base which weighs 243.5gr.


I tried to see if the unknown round was hollow, first by easing out the bullet, with no luck. Then I tried to take some high magnification/hi defination scans of the casemough and primer seating, but saw nothing interesting to indicate a cavity inside this dummy.

I don’t know anything about the various density of brass. according to the internet,the density of brass is 8587kg/m3 and copper is 8944 which makes copper only 4% heavier than brass. This sure makes me thing this unknown dummy must have a cavity in it but I can’t figure out how it could.

Thoughts appreciated.

Cheers,
Lew

PS: Click on the images for a full size image.


#14

Speaking of ‘dummy’ rounds, has anyone seen the likes of these four machined brass rounds, with a hollow point [?!], shown next to a standard .380 ACP round?
.921"/23.40mm long, .376:/9.55mm at the “case mouth”, tapers to .3765"/9.57 above the “extractor” groove, the rim is .385"/.978mm diameter and .067"/1.70mm thick.
No markings whatsoever that I can see, and I have no idea where- or whence- they came from.


#15

Ween’t these toy cartridges to be used with a small match head composition (or what ever the correct term is) insert in the nose to cycle the toy gun?


#16

Is this a typo Lew?


#17

Badger Jack these look like Japanese non-gun rounds.


#18

Pete, I only did that to see if there was anyone out there who was awake. Or, I did it because my few remaining gray cells are getting old and worn. Or, I still have not learned to type. Or, I never proof-read!

Select the one that most pleases you. Multiple selections are allowed and probably more accurate.

Lew


#19

works for me & I’ve never done that…

But I do have this bridge in Brooklyn to sell.


#20

Pete,
Please explain ‘Japanese non-gun rounds’?