Some swiss auto pistol rounds

A small group of Swiss rounds arrived yesterday/ One 7.65 Luger Headstamp 7 T 70 T Silver colored FMJ Brass case all blue primer. 3 9x19 - One with label {pistolenpatrone 41 ) included ‘no headstamp’ brass case RNFMJ silver colored Bullet, Stakes around case mouth well straight ones any rate NI Primer, Number two same basic case no stakes, Headstamp 'T 90" third same description Heaqdtamp “T 86” w “6” to right of date. These were new to my collection, but I have little info on what the loads are called and what the meaning of the odd 6 is on the one round of 9mm , Sorry No Pictures for now.

John,

Courtesy of Dimitri Goulas, I found this information in my files. Just so it is complete for everyone’s interest, I am including numbers which evidently don’t appear on 9 mm. If anyone has 9 mm with the added numbers to the headstamp, and not shown here as being on 9 mm, please report it on this thread. The document I have had from Dimi for many years was prepared by him, and contains info on the 9 mm Pistole Patrone Pat 41 and the 7.5 mm Gewehr Patrone 11. It is titled "Index, Meaning of the headstamp numbers on the Swiss Cases:

1 - Moist elaborated primer material Dynamit Nobel AG, GP 11, 1970-71
2 - Primer material 1 b, moist elaborated, GP 11, 1981-82
3 - Cartridge internally laquerd GP 11
4 - Parallel drilled ignition holes, Pistole Patrone and GP 11, 1979
5 - Parallel drilled ignition holes + moist elaborated primer material 1 b, GP 11
6 - 9 mm lead free, covered bullet tail, VS 200, 1987
7 - 9 mm non-toxic covered bullet tail and primer material variation silvertrizinat, PS 300, 1990
8 - 9 mm non-toxic covered bullet tail and primer material DNAG (Dynamit-Nobel A.-G.) Sintox Nr. 4066, VS 400, 1992
9 - 9 mm non-toxic with primer material DNAG 4111 Sintox combined mechanical and technical test PS 500/ 1993

I am missing, of the 9 mm, Number 7, from my own collection. There is also a 7.65 mm Parabellum round from 1979 with the number 4 on the headstamp. My thought was that Dimi missed this one, however we can note that for number 4 on his list, he doesn’t identify the precise caliber for pistol cartridges with this number, but rather simply describes it as “Pist Pat.” Wish it was spelled out, because if that stands for “Pistolen Patronen,” the plural form, it would explain that number appearing on both pistol calibers.
However, the little book entitled “Cartridge Head Stamps of Switzerland 1867 - 1985” by Michael am Rhyn, a Swiss Publication, and a smaller follow up covering later dates, agrees with Dimi on the identifications as he wrote them (perhaps taken from these books), and also shows the 7.65 mm Para round.

Hope this is of some help.

John Moss

I have corrected some obvious spelling errors on the original list. Unfortunately, I cannot explain in any detail most of these meanings, as I have had not access to the various protocols and manufacturing aspects matching some of the terminology.

https://www.landofborchardt.com/1900-Parabellum-ammo-article.html

http://www.ch-munition.ch/pistolenmun/pistframe.htm

Please note that the pistol is named Parabellum not Luger by the Germans and Swiss!

“Moist elaborated” means that the primer mix is processed in a wet state right through filling it into the primer, which is much safer than the original dry processing.
“Covered bullet tail” means a thin base plate covering the lead core, preventing direct contact between lead core and hot gas in the barrel.

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John Moss. Many Thanks for sharing. Will add to my notes! Chicken Thief, Yes the Pistole Parabellum is the correct name for the pistol that many today call the Luger. Designed by George Luger along with the 7,65x21 and 9x19mm cartridges! Swiss were one of first to test and adopt the Pistole Parabellum. Way before German Military did!
And JPeeken thanks for explaining what Moist elborated means for then rest of us. Makes sense. Keeping a sensitive compound damp/wet while being placed into the primer cup the drying is safer! Although Ima bit of an Old Dog. Im Never too old to learn things.

John - “Pistole Parabellum” is the correct way for the German Language. That does not automatically extend to other languages. The pistol. being long obsolescent and out of production for years, could still rightfully be called the Parabellum Pistol in English, but if you shook the country upside down, more people understand what a Luger Pistol is than understand what a Parabellum Pistol is. As to the cartridge, today, the correct name if we use CIP and SAAMI for the authority (which, by the way, I do not follow completely) is 9 mm Luger, and that is what has appeared for years on the headstamps of Geco cartridges from German, for instance. I, personally, prefer to use what best fits the context of the conversation, meaning if I am describing a commercial German Luger pistol from the early 19th Century, I call it a Parabellum Pistol. But if describing a Navy Model of this handgun, I call it “P-04” and a general military model for the other services, a “P-08.”

Peelen, I second the thanks for the explanation of those terms. I figured that was what a “covered bullet tail” meant, although I think for English, a better translation would be a “covered bullet base,” or perhaps better, a “covered bullet core.” I didn’t have a clue at all what the term “moist elaborated” meant. Your explanation of that was clear and concise.

Thanks.

John

Yes, a couple interesting terms. In America, as a rule, we generally refer to the bottom of a bullet as either Boat Tail, Flat Base, or Hollow Base.

From MANY years in and out of gun shops and gun shows, the handgun is usually caled a Luger- seldom a P-08, (or other P-number), and the cartridge is 9mm Luger or .30 Luger.
The only people I hear using the P-08 or Parabellum are the collectors who actually know of what they speak.
The last gun show I attended, a gent came by with a .30 Caliber P-08, and when I asked him if I might examine his P-08 he replied with, ‘Oh, you mean my Luger?’
Americans can be so crude… ;-)

Badger

Actually, referring to a .30 (7.65 mm) caliber “Luger” Pistol as a “P-08” would not be correct, since the P-08 can refer only to a 4" barrel 9 mm, or in the case of the 8" barrel “Artillery Luger” the term “P-08 Lang” would be correct. Just a little nitpick. Sorry about that. I guess I can’t get over that the second firearm I ever collected were “Lugers.”

John

Mind you, I never claimed to be a collector who would know of what they speak…

Badger - you know plenty! I enjoy your offerings very much.

john