South American Pinfire Cartridges


#1

Here are some pinfire cartridges from South America. Are there others? (specifically looking for metallic cartridges rather than shotshells but would be interested in seeing those too.)


These were made by Sociedad Anonima Spreafico (same company that makes the SAS headstamp on rimfires) - Buenos Ayres, Argentina for Carlos Rossetti, a renowned early gun manufacturer also in Buenos Ayres. This is the 7mm and 9mm example.


Made by or for Bertonnet & Gobert of Buenos Ayres, Argentina which was a gunmaker with a shop at 50 San Martín Street across from the Metropolitan Cathedral. This is 9mm.


I am not positive about this one, but it at least says Buenos Ayres on the bottom and I think it may say something like Bertonnet y (and) Gobert at the top. This was excavated from a Confederate encampment in New Kent, VA which saw action in the American Civil War as the Union army made their way to Richmond. This is a 16g.

Fede, what’s your take on this one?


Pin fire ID help
#2

Hello Aaron, great cartridges, congratulations! The ones made for Rasetti’s “Pajarito” brand (Little bird) also exist in 12 mm caliber and there are also different bird shapes. These were probably made by more than one manufacturer, including Spreafico.

The shotshell was made for “Verney y Gobert”, listed as gunmakers at 21 Perú Street, Buenos Aires (also St. Etienne and Lyon). Although this is a very early shotshell and is difficult to precise a date, I have some doubts about its use on the American Civil War. This marking exist in many different guns, including pinfire, rimfire and centerfire, but none of these are earlier than c. 1868 and probably date from the early 1870’s. I’ll try to find more information.

There is a rare 9 mm cartridge made for Dellazoppa and headstamped just DELLAZOPPA (you can search for more data on this company here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7694&hilit=dellazoppa). I’m not aware of any other calibers.

Also, there are cartridges made for Hasenclever & Cía of Buenos Aires and headstamped MARCA TORO. These exist in 9 mm and probably other calibers (there is a rumor of a 15 mm).

As a minor side note, French gunmaker Adolphe Bertonnet was the one who introduced the telegraph to Argentina, after several tests made between 1855 and 1860.


#3

I’m told that these 16ga pinfire shotshells are from (or were made for) Argentina.


16ga red body headstamp (four dot square) CALIBRE (four dot square) 16 64mm oa 5mm brass head
16ga greyish-blue body headstamp (four dot square) CALIBRE (four dot square) 16 59mm oa 6.5mm brass head
16ga pale-green body headstamp (four point star) GARANTIE (four point star) CROCODILE (all around) 16 65mm oa 5mm brass head


#4

Hello, the first two were made by Cartuchería Orbea Argentina and the third one by Sellier & Bellot Schönebeck, but it wasn’t made for Argentina, although is pretty common here and found in other calibers as well.


#5

Thank you for the information.


#6

Hello !

  1. About the ctges with the hstp “calibre” :
    I doubt very much they were made by Orbea.
    Indeed I saw big quantities of them in Belgian, France and Italy.
    Have you any proof of Orbea manufacturing ?

  2. About the ctges with the hstp “crocodile” :
    Have you any proof they were made by S&B ?
    Indeed the word “garantie” was used not only by S&B but also by SFM, Bischweiler, and others.

Thanks
JP


#7

Hello JP, there are several variations of the “CALIBRE 16” headstamp, but the ones by Orbea are easily recognized by those symbols formed by four squares.

I’ve seen boxes of the Garantie Crocodile shotshells in 12, 20 and 16, all labelled S&B Schönebeck. There is also a similar headstamp but without the symbols al 3 and 9 o’clock, but I don’t know who made it.


#8

[quote=“Fede”]Hello JP, there are several variations of the “CALIBRE 16” headstamp, but the ones by Orbea are easily recognized by those symbols formed by four squares.

I’ve seen boxes of the Garantie Crocodile shotshells in 12, 20 and 16, all labelled S&B Schönebeck. There is also a similar headstamp but without the symbols al 3 and 9 o’clock, but I don’t know who made it.[/quote]

Thanks Fede
Garantie crocodile from S&B is a good info. Thanks. If some day you find a picture of the box it will interest me

About the “calibre” hstped ctges, I am talking like you about the ones with the four squares symbols. Very strange we find them in Europe

JP


#9

About the “calibre” hstped ctges, I am talking like you about the ones with the four squares symbols. Very strange we find them in Europe

JP[/quote]

Hi Jean Pierre,
Nothing strange about it, they come from a large collection of south american shells, soon I will post more different ones. With headstamps Calibre, Primera, and others.

René


#10

[quote=“polman”]About the “calibre” hstped ctges, I am talking like you about the ones with the four squares symbols. Very strange we find them in Europe

JP[/quote]

Hi Jean Pierre,
Nothing strange about it, they come from a large collection of south american shells, soon I will post more different ones. With headstamps Calibre, Primera, and others.

René[/quote]

hello René

The rounds I saw (and bought) are not coming from a collection.
They were in big quantities and I got them from a gunshop in Italy.
I doubt very much france, Belgian and Italy were imported argentinan ctges before wwii.
Usually it was the opposite.

Has anybody a proof the “calibre” ctges were made by Orbea ?

thanks
jp


#11

As Promised pictures of my south american pin fire shotshells.
You will also see both variations of the Crocodile headstamps mentioned by Fede.




Hi fede can you perhaps tell me what EC means?


Does anybody know who made the El Correo headstamp?
And who is Marti Vazques??



Many thanks with any help provided.

regards rené


#12

Hello René, this is the information I have about the producer of some of the cartridges not discussed in earlier threads:

16 EL CORREO 16 (envelope): SFM
16 CALIBRE 16 *: S&B Schönebeck for Szorzato (SP = Scorzato-Parietti)
CALIBRE + 16 + (El Correo): S&B Schönebeck

I couldn’t find anything about the maker of the “12 E.C 12 BUENOS-AYRES” cartridges, not even for whom these were made. They show up as new primed empties or reloaded by some small companies not from Buenos Aires, so this doesn’t help much. There are three raised dots in the center of the headstamp of the rounds I’ve seen. Gévelot maybe?


#13

Hi Fede,
Many thanks for your info.

René


#14

[quote=“Fede”]Hello JP, there are several variations of the “CALIBRE 16” headstamp, but the ones by Orbea are easily recognized by those symbols formed by four squares.

[/quote]

Hello Fede

  1. Here is a picture of the hstp of the ctges we find in big quantity in europe.
    Are they the same as the ones you say made by Orbea ?
  2. About the ctges with the hstp "16 EL CORREO 16 (envelope): SFM"
    What was El Correo ? A trade mark ? If yes, for which gunsmith ?
    How do you know it was made by SFM ?

Thanks
JP


#15

Hello JP, there are several variations of the “CALIBRE 16” with the two sets of four dots and is very probable that some were made in Europe. The information on the “El Correo” pinfire maker was provided by Zwecker and Beutter, but I couldn’t find any information on this trademark. Some of these cartridges were also made for Orbea.


#16

Hi Fede,

You are talking of several variations.
I am talking specifically of the hstp I showed you

My question is :
This hstp is it or isn’t it the same as the hstp of the ctges made by Orbea ?

  1. If it is different please show me the hstp of the ctges made by Orbea.

  2. If it is the same tell me

  • either your source (Zwecker, Beutter, aso) saying these ctges were made by Orbea
  • or either give me explanations why you say they are Orbea made (documentation, year, trade mark, and so on)

It is not because I don’t believe you, it is just the fact I can put in my book only info which is 100% sure.

Till I don’t see a proof I don’t enter any ctge in my files.

I prefer to put very little info that I am sure than a lot identified by some very knowledgeable people which unfortunately make from time to time a mistake.

Just to give you an exemple, I have ever heard than “GG” (you know the mark you find on SFM ctges) was for the initials of Gevelot and Gaupillat. And 99% of the people think that I am sure.

And I discovered last week it was not true !

jp


#17

Hi JP,
Well…fill us in on the GG.
(Or do we have to wait for the book?:)

Dan


#18

[quote=“Dan”]Hi JP,
Well…fill us in on the GG.
(Or do we have to wait for the book?:)

Dan[/quote]

Good idea !! let’s make a small quizz
jp


#19

JP, I’ve researched the “CALIBRE 16” and “PRIMERA 16” headstamped cartridges found here and I’ve encountered the following variations of the symbols located at 3 and 9 o’clock:

CALIBRE 16:

  • Diamond divided in four sectors: El Correo by S&B Schönebeck
  • “Maltese” style cross: El Correo by S&B Schönebeck
  • Four diamonds: red, yellow; believed to be a product of Cartuchería Orbea Argentina. No proof, sorry!
  • Four dots: green; made by ?

PRIMERA 16:

  • Diamond divided in four sectors: red, brown; by S&B Schönebeck
  • “Maltese” style cross: brown; by S&B Schönebeck
  • “Balkenkreuz” style cross: brown; made by ?

“El Correo” was a trademark of Hasenclever & Cía of Buenos Aires.


#20

Hello Fede
Thanks to have spent time to do researchs

  1. From which catalogue (and year) is the nice picture of El Correo ctge ?

  2. So El correo is german made.
    I prefer that. Pndeed I was very surprised when you said SFM made because I didn’t find any reference to this hstp in customer files.

  3. About “calibre 16 with 4 diamonds” I think it is better to forget to say Orbea made. I think they are belgian made (too many boxes in France,Italy, Belgium as I told you)

thanks
jp