Today I acquired what appears to be a 9x23 Steyr Hahn round. It has a brass case, brass Berdan primer and nickeled brass bullet. It is headstamped “PS 41” In the typical Spanish low quality headstamp style. Is this Pirotecnia Militar de Sevilla? The “41” could aslo be “91”. Which is most likely? Any info would be helpful.
Not 9mm Steyr but 9mm Bergmann-Bayard, standard Spanish military pistol for many years. It will be a 1941 date. The two rounds are easily confused.
John Moss is the man to give you the full story, you need his book on the 9 x 23mm.
Cheers Tony. Got this good quality inert round in a bag of “Bullets” as the seller called them for
Tony is right that it is technically Bergmann-Bayard, but it would be more accurately described as a 9mm Largo.
- @ Falcon: The 9mm Bergmann-Bayard cartridge [also known as “9mm Largo”] has these dimensions: round length - 33.53mm; case length - 23.11mm; rim diameter - 9.95mm. — The 9mm Steyr cartridge has these dimensions: round length - 33.00mm; case length - 22.86mm; rim diameter - 9.65mm. Note the slightly differences. Both cartridges are rimless. — The 9mm Largo round can be found as 9X23, the same for the 9mm Steyr. Many times the 9mm Largo and 9mm Steyr are easily confused with each other. To avoid this situation when I do mention the 9mm Steyr cartridge, I mention it as 9X22.7 even if another cartridge collectors don’t do it or don’t like it. Liviu 04/28/07 P.S. I took the cartridge dimensions from above from the book named “Military Small Arms of the 20th Century” by Ian V. Hogg & John Weeks. Perhaps another books may give slightly different values but this isn’t important.
Thanks, this is slightly over 23mm, and with the Spanish headstamp, I think we can all safely say it is the 9mm Largo. Thanks for everyone’s input.
- @ Falcon: It is definitely a 9mm Largo round. You should find a 9mm Steyr cartridge and compare them to see the slightly differences. — Many other cartridges can be easily confused, like the .50" Browning MG [12.7X99] with the .52" / 13.2mm Hotchkiss Long [13.2X99]. Liviu 04/28/07
Occasionally also referred to as the 9mm Campo-Giro
I know you’re not saying it does, but the second cartridge does not belong to the box below. The cartridge looks like a Palencia or Sevilla production of the fifties, while the rounds in the newer box should be from Toledo, bear the 9-L SB-T headstamp, and have a green primer annulus.
You have to be somewhat careful in judging Spanish 9mm Largo rounds simply by the head and base diameter. I found that some of the late Spanish rounds are very small and actually chamber quite well in Steyr Pistols. Of course, the two cartridges, 9mm Bergmann (Largo) and 9mm Steyr are generally NOT interchangeable. When writing my book, I tried every Bergmann-Bayard (and Bergmann-Mars) cartridge, including all Spanish Largos, in the barrels, initially, of four Steyr M1911/12 pistols. One was discarded quickly, as I challenged the barrel to the owner, and a quick examination found it had been very badly reamed out in the chamber, something he had never noticed. I challenged it because every 9mm BB round was dropping into it with ease. Only a small percentage of known Bergmann rounds would chamber in any of the other Steyr barrels, and they were mostly late-production Spanish.
Since it was primarily late production Spanish ammo on the milsurp market, it iw probably the reason why so many Americans, including me until I started a real study of the cartridge, thought that the two rounds were only generlaly different in bullet weight, and were interchangeable in firearms. Wrong, of course.
Identifying these rounds is sometimes difficult, and every factory - bullet jacket material, headstamp, shapes of the extractor groove and extractor groove bevel, lack or presence of a case cannelure, bullet ogive, etc. need to be considered.
In this case, of course, there is no question the round posted is a Largo.