Spanish or Sharps


#1

Is the hollow dummy in the middle a 43 Spanish or a 44-77 Sharps? The ogive is more like a sharps.
The one on the left is a Spanish hollow dummy UMC.
The one on the right is a 44-77 Sharps.


#2

Spanish.
This soldered hollow (core-less) bullet is found in a couple of variations. Wide ringed head with what looks like a lead plating / color / appearance & somewhat brighter tinned looking with a narrow ringed head. Yours looks more like the duller lead variation. Primers are brass on both variations.

(Edited once to correct ringed head sizes)


#3

Pete, the bullet looks soldered in the case.


#4

Bruce, for what it’s worth, I have the same pair with lead solder clearly apparent at the case mouth on the more rounded bullet. The one with the Spanish-looking bullet has a Berdan primer and the UMC narrow ring on the base while the one with the Sharps-looking bullet has the wider ring (Winchester?) and a boxer primer.


#5

Hi Bruce
yes, that is what I was trying to say, both variations have been soldered, in fact all three, = the two you show (you should see some solder in the left-hand one) and the brighter tinned looking variation I have which also shows the same down-the-neck treatment. Likely dipped in lead solder past the mouth & now with age has a dull lead colored appearance, not a bright tin solder we see being used today in plumbing or electronic use.

The light (temperature) I have on now will not give correct color rendition tonight. I’ll photograph my two tomorrow.


#6

krag56 & PetedeCoux:

SOME YEARS AGO I OBTAINED ABOUT A DOZEN OF THE U.M.C. HOLLOW DUMMIES FROM JIM TILLINGHAST. I SECTIONED HALF OF THEM FOR COLLECTORS WHO WANTED TO SHOW A SECTIONED CARTRIDGE NEXT TO THEIR COMPLETE ROUND. NONE OF THEM HAD THE BULLET SOLDERED INTO THE CASE AND ALL HAD A ROUGHLY CUT (SQUARE ACROSS) WOODEN DISTANCE PIECE. THE WINCHESTER ROUND WITH THE SOLDERED BULLET IS FAR LESS COMMON THAN THE U.M.C. ROUNDS, BUT YOU GUYS ALREADY KNEW THAT.


#7

Here is a photo of the mouth where the bullet jacket meets the mouth on my left example & it sure looks like solder in the joint. It doesn’t appear to have been polished before so I don’t think it’s Brasso residue. However I’ve been wrong before.
It appears I had my description of the tinning vs lead vs ringed heads size backwards in my above. I’ll correct it next.

Photos below are not very good showing the differences in the color of the solder dipped but the UMC on the right is brighter more silvery in color (disregarding the texture) than the Winchester in the middle.



#8

Could anybody confirm this dummy to be Spanish or if not then provide ID?
No hs and empty primer pocket without flash holes. The case is filled with saw dust.


#9

Please remember that both Remington and Winchester produced Berdan Primed Military BP cases for Export Contract ammunition; they were not restricted to “Boxer only”.

Doc AV


#10

Alex
I have what appears to be the same (right) with a total weight of around 530 grains. It has a ringed head and I have it identified as a Remington Armorers dummy (Spanish yes & it has the same ring at the bullet tip.). I have no idea of the composition of any filling but I can’t hear any filling. OAL is 2.986"

Another variation (left) weighing about 664 grains with three flash holes, has the been tinned from the bullet tip to the start of the shoulder. It has an inner wood distance piece. OAL is 2.920"

The heads-photo below is not very good as the one on the left seems to show another slight ring. It does not both heads are like the one on the right, one somewhat wide flat ring, Other than coloring and flash holes, they are identical.


#11

Pete, thanks a lot for the great info and image. Now I am sure it is identical to the one in your image (right one).


#12

Pete, do you know anything about the origin of these dummies? Who made them? I wonder if these were made for Gatling guns or maybe repeating rifles.


#13

Fede
No I’m sorry, but nothing more other than Remington as the maker for the right one & because the head is the same on the half-tinned one i consider it Remington.

Howard Hoovestol, in his E. Remington & Sons book shows this head on the Addendum to Chapter III page as a variation in the specifications of Smoot’s patent of Oct. 24, 1871. On the next page he shows a variation & X-ray from a Buttweiler catalog (Vol. XI, No.1 lot 233) patent #115,892 of June 13, 1871 & notes made by E. Remington.
On the first page of chapter II he notes Remington sold in 1871-72 89,000 riles to Cuba in 43 Spanish & 130,000 to Spain plus 50,000 to Mexico. however on the next page he states that up to about 1873, U.M.C.Co. was the only company capable of making CF cartridges in any quantity. So…

Most of the book deals with sporting and more modern production. On a quick look through I couldn’t find anything specific to either of these.


#14

Pete, thanks a lot for your answer.