Sporting german ctge

The dimensions are :
rim diam : 15 mm
base diam: 13 mm
inside neck diameter : 11.70 mm
case length : 60 mm
brass staight case
Hstp : Utendoerffer
Any idea?


Could it be a 11,6 x 60R Express,the german version of the english 450 black powder express?

My 450 german express/60 mm sample:

rim:15,40 mm
base:13.80 mm
inside neck diam:11,67 mm
case lenght:60.55 mm
HDS: GR / * / * / *

There are some differences in rim and base diameter

Jean-Pierre, does it have a flat base or a raised “MB” type base ?

flat base

I think Pivi is probably correct - 11,6 x 60R Express. The dimensions are a bit less than the Austrian types but the German and Czech versions of the 450 (11.6mm) Express cases seem to be closer to 13mm than 13.8mm at the head. A picture could be useful.

Thanks to all.
Because of you I have now the confirmation it is not a sporting ctge .
(very often people put in the sporting ctges shotshells they don’t know)

In fact this ctge is listed as a shotshell in the Utendoerffer catalogues under the name : CM
The only problem is nobody has ever seen one!!
And furthermore it exists in pin fire !!!

Because of the similarity in the shape of the case some people think it is for a 11 mm Mauser. But how to explain the pin fire case ?

here is a picture

If somebody finds one I would be interested by the exact dimensions.
Indeed you have to be very carefull with the dimensions given in the german catalogues.
For the same ctge, depending of the year, they give either the maximum, either the average, either the minimum !!!

Jean-Pierre, I have issues with the way you are presenting some of your questions lately. You ask a question(s) without giving all the information you have

When someone goes to the trouble of researching it, making scans and answering the question, you point out that you knew this information already. You then come to some dubious conclusion that it can’t be a “sporting cartridge”.

For other examples of this “technique” see also:

It is only good manners to offer all the information you have when asking a question. It is as if you are trying to trick someone into giving a false answer ? Some of this this “technique” can be put down to “lost in translation” but not all. If you continue to ask questions in this manner I will no longer answer them.

Brad Dixon

Hi Brad

  1. I never said I knew the answer.

I make an hypothese, check if somebody else knows the ctge under another use, and if not, I am pretty sure (80 %) my hypothese is good.

This is totally different than to be 100 % sure of the answer and wait the other giving a wrong answer, like you are thinking.

  1. Furthermore , I got good info at the swiss meeting,from Austrian and German people, after I asked the questions in this forum.

  2. I know about thirty ctges either given as shotshells in litterature or either I suspect to be.
    The problem is almost nobody knows them, either because they haven’t seen them or, very often, because they all think they are only sporting ctges.

Frankly speaking, do you think many people will check in their collection or documentation, if I am asking: “Do you know this or this shotshell ?”

First they will have a bad direction (because they will think “shotshell”) and second, because they do not collect shotshell, they will at a glance think they do not have it
Furthermore, if the ctge has two uses I will not know that.

  1. Regarding the fact you said : “You then come to some dubious conclusion that it can’t be a “sporting cartridge””, I think it is a compliment I am doing to you.
    Indeed if you, you do not know the ctge, there are great chances it is not a sporting round.

  2. To finish, as soon as I have info, I put it on the forum.
    Now, you know the difference between 11.15 LK and St, don’t you?



JP - (referring to: )

I already know the differance between the LK and St . So why don’t you ask that question and then I would have told you (plus more than what you have stated) . Instead you ask the question “Were steel cases commercial sporting rifle ctges existing in Germany before WWII ? What I call commercial means non military calibers.”

Which is totally irrelevant to what “St.” means regarding LK cartridges !!!

You will not get the answers you seek using this method…

  1. Because when I found the picture it was a shotshell drawing from RWS with Stahl written.

Only Stahl.

I thought they were steel cases.

  1. Because of the caliber I supposed they were perhaps for sporting use.
    I have some steel cases 8x57, but from after war.
    Therefore I asked if steel cases were existing before WWII.

  2. In switzerland I looked for these ctges and found some.
    And they were brass cases.

Therefore I came to the conclusion Stahl was meaning the manufacturer standard (even if made by RWS) and not the material.

  1. Coming back from switzerland I checked your book and I gave the info on the forum.

There is no trick with that.