SS TV 7.9 mystery continues


#1

This cartridge came from an SS trash pit at a German concentration camp site.

Brass primer.

Deep firing pin snap is hard to photograph,

Shown next to typical TV blank with copper primer. It is a typical 7.9x57 case. It appears shorter due to the angle of the camera.


#2

Nice fake.


#3

Opinions are not information.

Do you have actual information ?

As I understand your posts you don’t collect these because they are not MILITARY but rather POLICE and that is why you don’t collect the expensive ones . Am I getting this right ?

If you don’t collect them what is the basis of your OPINION ?


#4

The firing pin indentation has the appearance of having had a few goes at trying to make it fire. which probably is why it ended up in the trash pit.

Just a suggestion but people often keep dud rounds. Most shooter’s boxes today usually contain at least one. I don’t suppose soldiers pockets were any different. It may have migrated to the site as a dud.


#5

It becomes a little funny to me, but I will try to answer your question

For all ammunition ordered and made for the German government there were so called “Abnahmebestimmungen”
These regulations were for HWA as for other government organizations like custom, police, and so on. One of this was the primer must be hold with crimps. This improvement is one of the oldest (1892) as by firing the M88 primers were blown out and were a danger for the solder that shot with the Rifle M88.

This regulation was not for blanks. The machine who made the primer crimp had an operator, (who cost money) so they did not made them when blank 33 were ordered. Of course there are also blank 33 with a primer crimps. They were made from “leftovers” from ball production, cases with quality problems, and reworked rounds, for example SmK-H.

The primer crimp machines

Unfortunately I do not remember I have written not collecting these rounds. At the moment I have over 13.500 different German 7,9 Mauser cartridges in my collection. There are also a few between them made for police or other organizations.


The SS TV 39 blank 33 with primer 30 you are showing is OK.
The other one is a fired case of this blank 33 with a bullet on it, and a nice story.
We see them a lot here in Europe. There are always persons who looking for people who want to pay for this kind of “scare” cartridges.
SS rounds from 1938 in poor condition are offered here in Europe for about $ 85.00 US (with postage). This is a lot of money for a “head stamp”.


But, if you need some.

egun.de/market/item.php?id=3560081

Rgds
Mauser


#6

Very kind of you to share this. Do you think that the bullet in your TV SS 1939 is original? The mouth does not appear to have a proper crimp. Maybe the rot ?

Have you ever seen a German military or police 7.9 cartridge other than the blank without primer crimps ?

Thanks also for the opinion on the other item. I seem to remember you saying that the TV SS 1939 hs was only loaded in blank.

Isn’t that a ball round next to the typical blank ?

Are there a lot of TV SS 1939 primed cases floating around Europe ? I have never seen one.

Concerning headstamp value; I have sold cartridges in excess of $1000 several times for the HEADSTAMP.

A one inch Gatling for long case , for example , without headstamp can be had for less than $1,000. I sold a WRA Co. ( 1 of 3 known - I still have one) headstamped one for $5,000 and a One Inch UMC headstamped Nordenfelt for $3500 + trade . The Nordenfelt sells for about $50 without a headstamp.

If you want to really pocket some cash find the 8mm Murata with Russian HEADSTAMP which Metric Mitch had before he died. If you find it let me know I will send you LOTS OF MONEY !

Do you want to sell some of your headstamps CHEAP ?

Specific caliber collectors sometimes develop a limited view of the universe of ammunition collecting.

I like that.

I am fond of folks who collect ammo but don’t know what it is worth.

Most of what I have bought over the years came from just such collectors.


#7

Concerning the cartridge which Dutch doesn’t like; my rule is this - If the king of cartridge collecting likes it, I like it. He does.


#8

SO this WHOLE Slanging Match is over a Cartridge Case ( Origiinal and Kosher) which MAY have been fitted, Post-Factum, with the correxct type of Wood (Platzpatrone) projectile???

Is it REALLY a “Fake”, or Simply a “Reproduction”???
When one says “Fake” there is an intention to deceive, to misrepresent, to “con”, etc, usually for Monetary Gain…

“Reproduction” is simpy a representation of the original, made “Post Facto”, usually because the originals actually don’t exist anymore, or are very rare, or are extremely expensive.

Now the indicia regarding “primer crimping”. The use of Crimping in the Patrone 88 ( 1890s) came about not so much because of Primer cup setback in the Gew88 rifle (Possible) but because of Cup blowout in the M1894 Maxim ( First trials of Vickers-Built Maxims in Germany by the Imperial Navy) Later Maxims (MG99, MG 00 and of course MG08) were all built by DWM, the Maxim Licence Holder in Germany. It is interesting to note that it was the Imperial Navy which adopted the first Maxims, and the Army only started thinking of them with the MG 00, and that for “Colonial” Use ( The SchutzeTruppen, nominally Army, but actually a Separate Force (KolonialAmt).

Crimping really only came into its own in WW I, with Aircraft MG use…in fact, the French, having adopted the Lewis Gun for Aircraft in 1915-16, RE-Crimped US Contract ammo cases ( the ammo had quality issues as to Powder Loads,so the French stripped down the ammo, loaded new Powder, crimped the primers (Stabs) and seated Tracer and AP projectiles( initially imported from Britain) By 1918, all US-Made Ammo for Aircraft Use (.303 and .30/06) was stab crimped (three and sometimes four). The British had adopted “Ringing” ( full ring crimp) by mid 1916 for MG ammo (Air) and it was also used for Land ammo as well (not universally, though).

Anyway, look what a “Point of discourse” in an otherwise unsavoury fracas about SS-TV cases, has led to…Primer crimping-Whys and wherefores…

Once a statement is made or an assumption questioned, one never knows where it will lead…
Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#9

Yes, the cartridge is original with the original bullet.

It was found in the Eastern part of Europe in a country were it is not allowed to have life ammunition. The person pulled the bullet and removed powder and send it to me. It is not a problem to make the cartridge looks new, I preferred in my collection to keep the round in the way I get them. The picture shows how the rounds were found.

DocAv

The blowout was not the Maxim MG, but the rifle M88.
The change from Patrone 88 aA (alte Art) to Patrone 88 nA (neue Art) was in 1892/93. The month February 1893 of Spandau did not have a primer crimp, in March had one.
Can make you a picture if you wish.

Why do you think thy called the Maxim Mod. 1894. :)
With this MG they had a different problem, that’s why the GPK developed a special case/cartridge.

Between “Fake”, or Simply a "Reproduction“ is a difference.
The person who makes a reproduction makes a mark on the round/case to show that.
The one who makes a fake, have other intentions.

Some examples.

The DWM 1938 SS, SmK Leuchtspur. (Upgrade from an sS case). Tested the annulus color,
was made for fingernails. I informed the seller, He destroyed the cartridge immediately.
The DWM 1938 SS-TV. Think I don’t have to explain the difference to an original head stamp.
The CZO, A real science fiction head stamp.

Rgds
Dutch


#10

“Once a statement is made or an assumption questioned, one never knows where it will lead…”.
Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.

Amen to that ! Sometimes it leads to valuable information.

When I was interviewing Gerald Yonetz , Director of hardware development , Special Operation Division , Ft. Detrick,Md. he would misunderstand the question and I would get answers to twice as many questions. Some of these I didn’t ask but got valuable info.


#11

DUTCH; again thanks for sharing . That Czech shell was really well done. Are you sure that it was faked ? How can you tell?

Two questions you didn’t answer;

  1. Are there TV SS 1939 primed empty cases common in Europe? It seems none have been seen in the US. Europe ?

  2. have you seen German 7.9s , other than blanks , without primer crimps in the WW2 era ?

I asked Woodin Lab the same question;

ANSWER;

" Yes occasionally, for example many rounds made by DWM Berlin (P131) in 1937 lack primer crimps… if the contract didn’t specify primer crimps, they could save a fraction of a pfennig per round by not crimping them!

end quote.

The SS was not adverse to saving money in the 1930s.


#12

Re: SS TV 7.9 mystery continues
SO this WHOLE Slanging Match is over a Cartridge Case ( Origiinal and Kosher) which MAY have been fitted, Post-Factum, with the correxct type of Wood (Platzpatrone) projectile???

I don’t know what a “slanging match” is but if it mean a discussion about minor details then that is what we are doing.

The devil is in the details !


#13

The DWM 1938 SS, SmK Leuchtspur. (Upgrade from an sS case). Tested the annulus color,
was made for fingernails. I informed the seller, He destroyed the cartridge immediately.

How did you determine this ? Chemical analysis?


#14

[quote=“DrSchmittCSAEOD”]DUTCH; again thanks for sharing . That Czech shell was really well done. Are you sure that it was faked ? How can you tell?
[/quote]

Not being a 7.9 specialist but dealing with Warsaw Pact codes I can say the following:

German code czo was “Heeres-Zeugamt, Geschoßwerkstatt, Königsberg”

The big mistake here is that the Czechs used the code CZO after 1945 at their plant “Zbrojovka Vsetin, plant #3”.

Good craftmanship on the hs but poor knowledge of the subject. Actually one of the main reasons why fakes are getting identified.


#15

Interesting, thank you.

The SS occupied that area and used huge amounts of the Czech ammo and weapons.

Is it impossible that a Czech arsenal made ammunition for the SS ?

I don’t have a specimen of that cartridge with that area blank. Does anyone ?


#16

Regarding the “?Fake?” CZO marked case. If “czo” (Lower case) is an actual, Post-1948 (not 45) Czechoslovak Socialist Republic headstamp factory ID, and also a Wartime German headstamp, then this cartridge is “Covert” rather than “Fake”. The Czechs produced a lot of Misleading headstamp 7,9mm ammo in the late 1940s early 50s for sale/aid to Hotspots around the world, usually with markings which simulated Late WW II markings of the former Nazi regime,
and in this case, just by luck/accident the wartime “czo” matched the Postwar “czo” existence of a different Czech code Factory.(or maybe not by happenstance).

Just a case of “Mis-identification,” rather than “Fakery”.

“Slanging Match”: Aussie for “Flaming” or “Disrespecting or Disparaging Comments” in an ongoing discussion. Sometimes it is purposeful, sometimes it (usually) arises from mutual misunderstandign of each others Language ( “They were divided by a common language”)

The “czo” case is an addition to my knowledge of “Covert” 7,9mm ammo of post-1948 period.

And also, “never say never” or “never say Always” with regards to production methods of cartridges. There will most often be an exception to the rule.

As to the M1894 Naval Maxim and the Gew88 primer blowout problem, My impression was that it was “more important” a problem in the MG, and that the Gew88 problemn was concurrent with the other “Blowup” problems of the then “new” Gew88, before the “Neue material” composition of the rifle, and the “Neue Art” design of the cartridge case.

Everything about smokeless small calibre cartridges was in a state of Flux with the introduction of smokeless Powder in the late 1880s-early 1890s…even Italy had “primer cup issues” with leaky Cups in the original M91 cartridge (Flat base, no crimp)…it resolved the matter by using a concentric circle “ditch” around the primer, which, on firing, was compressed by the Bolt face, and sealed the Cup in place. (The M91/95 Case).

Just goes to show that in Research of particular problems, one must be alive to the greater Picture, and venture into un-familiar areas outside one’s immediate collection interest. It’s just like Archeology…I regularly get requests from Archeologists about shell cases found in Middle-Eastern Digs, where WW I cartridge Cases are found together with or overlaying Crusader era coins etc. (Syria, Lebanon, etc.).

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#17

Re. the czo cartridge: That headstamp looks hand made imho, the lines are not parallel, some of the letters and numbers are not upright on the radius, and wrong ‘font’. If it was made on regular machinery after the war, the bunters must have been loose fitting.
Oh, Dutch don’t keep to the cheap 7,9’s: He sold me a mint Werkzeugpatrone in Kassel a couple of years ago, I paid what was the going rate and had to scrounge cash from several of my travel mates to get it…
Soren


#18

[quote=“mausernut”]Re. the czo cartridge: That headstamp looks hand made imho, the lines are not parallel, some of the letters and numbers are not upright on the radius, and wrong ‘font’. If it was made on regular machinery after the war, the bunters must have been loose fitting.
Oh, Dutch don’t keep to the cheap 7,9’s: He sold me a mint Werkzeugpatrone in Kassel a couple of years ago, I paid what was the going rate and had to scrounge cash from several of my travel mates to get it…
Soren[/quote]

Let’s try not to get too personal. Often disparaging remarks about values are made in defense of an argument. Everyone knows that headstamps are valuable. I have heard that the TV SS 1939 which he shows above cost $300 in Europe. That is a good chunk of change for a police headstamp.Many comment made in arguments are not really serious.


#19

DocAV scores again.

I hope that none of my comments seem disrespectful of other serious collectors here.

I do not spend time with folks who I disrespect.

I avoid them.

When I find error with someone who I respect I take the time to bring it to their attention. The 7.9x57 is one of my favorite cartridges and if pressed I would have to say “my favorite”.

Being mistaken is not a crime in the USA and I have been wrong lots of time ( well maybe only a few , actually it was once I have to admit). Hey ! I was just wrong again. Yike!


#20

Also are brass cases unlikely by 1944 unless for the airforce. The SS was not flying much as far as I know.