Steel case ctges


#1

Were steel cases commercial sporting riffle ctges existing in Germany before WWII ?
What I call commercial means non military calibers.

Thanks
JP


#2

Jean-Pierre, here are my notes on the subject:

RWS Steel cases for sporting use
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
RWS are know to have produced “copper washed steel” (CWS) cases from as early as 1916 and also “laquered steel” cases in the late 1930’s and '40s. During WW II, RWS perfected the manufacture of steel cartridge cases. Evidently an RWS factory drawing exists of a steel case version of the 8x57J is dated 24.12.1941.

There is a packet containing 9.3x72R Normal (EXP17) cases made from copper washed Steel with hs “19//16//” and so produced by RWS: Note the unusual “360/72/Normal” designation.

WW1 era RWS Steel case headstamps include:

19//16// (9.3x72R Normal) (CWS)
19//16// (5.6x35R Vierling) (unconfirmed CWS but likely)
19//18// (8x57JR) (CWS)

According to J-B Anderhub:“In 1937 Germany started to replace brass cases by steel cases in this calibre” (Ed 8x57 Mauser - for military use). However, RWS did make military copper-washed steel cases as early as 1936 (“P151 S 1 36” hs). Late 1930’s- WW2 era RWS Steel case headstamps generally have double stars in the hs and include:

RWS. * 6.5x54 M-Sch. * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 7x57 * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 7x57R * (Laquered steel)
RWS 7x72R (confirmed steel case but hs unconfirmed)
RWS * 8x56 M.’-Sch * (CWS and Laquered Steel)
RWS * 8x57J * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 8x57JS * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 8x57JR * (CWS and Laquered Steel)
RWS * 8x57JRS * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 8x60 * (CWS and probably Laquered Steel)
RWS * 8x60S * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 8x60RS * (CWS and Laquered Steel)
RWS * 8.15x58R * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 9x57 * (CWS and Laquered Steel)
RWS 9.3X57 (Laquered steel)
RWS * 9.3x57 * (Laquered steel - produced from c1941)
RWS * 9,3x72R * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 9,3x74R * (Laquered steel)

Unconfirmed but likely exist in Lacquered Steel:

RWS * 6.5X57 *
RWS * 7x64 *
RWS * 7x65R *
RWS * 9X56M.-Sch. *

The use of brown lacquered steel cases on the 12,7x44RH., was a finishing technique only starting from 1941 but strangely it still used the early "H.UTENDOERFFER *NURNBERG * " headstamp.

DWM Steel cases for sporting use
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DWM sometimes (but not exclusively) also used double stars " * * " in the hs of steel cased sporting ammunition and produced these in the late 1930’s. The * DWM * CWS-cased headstamp is not unlike similar, “2 - star” headstamps from RWS.

DWM Steel case headstamps:

DWM 7x57R (CWS)
DWM 8x50R (CWS and Laquered Steel)
DWM 7,9mm (CWS)
DWM 8x57J (CWS)
DWM * 8x57JS * (CWS)
DWM 8x57JR (CWS)
DWM 9.3x72R (CWS) (see bottom image)

Unknowns:
7x57 Steel and Brass cases (M24)
7x6 Steel case (M30)

A DWM steel-cased round exists that is definitely pre-WW2. It is headstamped “DWM 7,9mm,” and is a CWS case, with brass primer, black primer seal, (primer is not crimped) and spitzer, FMJ bullet.


#3

Think I read or heard that the German military made some steel cased 8 x 57 that was brass plated inside and copper plated outside or visa-versa. How are these identified from normal plated rounds?

Gourd


#4

Thank you very much
jp


#5

[quote=“jean-pierre”]Thank you very much
jp[/quote]

If I understand well :
an RWS steel case ctge from the beginning of the thirties is copper washed steel and hstped: * RWS * caliber

Right ?
jp


#6

or * Utendoerffer * caliber
jp


#7

The RWS hs were as shown in the previous email, ie:

RWS. * 6.5x54 M-Sch. * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 7x57 * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 7x57R * (Laquered steel)
RWS 7x72R (confirmed steel case but hs unconfirmed)
RWS * 8x56 M.’-Sch * (CWS and Laquered Steel)
RWS * 8x57J * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 8x57JS * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 8x57JR * (CWS and Laquered Steel)
RWS * 8x57JRS * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 8x60 * (CWS and probably Laquered Steel)
RWS * 8x60S * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 8x60RS * (CWS and Laquered Steel)
RWS * 8.15x58R * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 9x57 * (CWS and Laquered Steel)
RWS 9.3X57 (Laquered steel)
RWS * 9.3x57 * (Laquered steel - produced from c1941)
RWS * 9,3x72R * (Laquered steel)
RWS * 9,3x74R * (Laquered steel)

The only exception that I can think of are brown lacquered steel cases of the raised base 12,7x44RH which according to Heinz Held “was a finishing technique only starting from 1941, are still headstamped “H.UTENDOERFFER * NURNBERG *” . This kind of cases/cartridges for which a technical drawing dated 27.6.1943 exists,”


#8

Hi WBD,
a) In your list you writte some ctges with laquered steel cases.

b) In your previous post you wrote:
" RWS are know to have produced “copper washed steel” (CWS) cases from as early as 1916 and also “laquered steel” cases in the late 1930’s and '40s"

c) My question was “in the beginning of the thirties” (in 1930 to be more accurate)

d) Therefore at this date (1930) only copper washed steel cases were existing.
Could you please confirm ?

jp


#9

Ok Jean-Pierre, I understand your question now. I suspect that at the beginning of the 1930’s that only CWS case existed and the laquered steel case came later. Heinz Held thought from 1941 but I cannot confirm that for sure. 9.3x57 with laquered steel cases are known from 1943 packets.

You have to remember that this information on this subject comes in small pieces from a variety of sources and little exact information is available.


#10

OK !
Swiss meeting gave me some info.
When I asked the question on the forum, I didn’t know if for the caliber made by RWS I will talk later , stahl was a standard (company dimensions) or was meaning “steel”

Let’s start by the beginning.
There are ctges often called 11.15 R
Lengths are : 40, 50, 52, 55, 60, 65

These ctges are often given for Express rifles.

In his book WBD note the similarity of these ctges with 36 gauge shotshell.
He also wonders why some have a St and other a LK in the hstp

Here are some answers.

  1. They are 2 different 11.15 ctges (x 52, 60, 65), the difference been in the rim thickness

  2. 11.15 is totally different of the 36 Gauge made (by DWM or Utendoerffer or Stahl)

  • rim diameter: 12.55 to 12.80 for 36 versus 13.05 to 13.20 for 11.15
  • base diameter : 11.75 to 11.85 for 36 versus 11.90 to 12.10 for 11.15
  • rim thickness : 1.25 to 1.40 for 36 ST versus :
    a) 1.35 to 1.45 for 11.15 LK
    b) 1.15 to 1.30 for 11.15 St
    (the rims of the others 36 are:
  • 1.60 to 1.70 for 36 SL
  • 2.00 to 2.10 for the 36 Thick rim)
  1. The 11.15 (L= 52, 60, 65) (St and LK) ctges were for shotguns.
    (About the 40 mm one, I have no proof but I think also).
    They are listed as that till 1924 (and perhaps after) in the RWS catalogues

  2. Some of them are also for Express, I don’t know which ones (St or LK or both)

JP


#11

So Jean-Pierre, was this the original question you really wanted to answer at the start of this topic. If so I could have provided much more information than was in my book (or in your final answer). I no longer feel inclined to do so. Please see the folowing topic for my point of view regarding your questions:
iaaforum.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?p=32760#32760


#12

JP,
I have seen the 11,15 x 65R cartridge listed both as “express” and “lancaster”.
The word “lancaster” is,according to “cartridge of the world”,a generic name for “shotshell”.The cartridge pictured on www.munition.org website is loaded with a solid lead bullet.

If I understood you the 11,15 x 65R express and the 11,15 x 65R lancaster shouldn’t be interchangeable


#13

Hi Pivi,

A) I din’t say that.

But:

  1. LK and St are shotshells.
    Same case, two differnt rim thickness, as for all the German shotshells. Some calibers have three different rims, depnding if they have the british standard, the old german standard, or the Austrian standard.

  2. I don’t know which one is for Express : LK, St, or both.
    .
    You can for example imagine St only is for express because the rim is thinner.

One thing is sure : LK and St are two different ctges
You need one of each in your collection if it is a reference collection (one ctge of each case type)
Because a gun chambered for the thinner one will not take the thicker one.

B) “lankaster” in the old time in Germany didn’t mean "shotshell"
but : straight brass case
Because 99% of the shotshells have a straight case, the name became similar as shotshell.

JP


#14

The LK (= Lancaster Kugel) and the B.Stahl (“St.”) case type may have origins from shotshells (36g ??) but they ARE NOT SHOTSHELLS.

Both are shown in catalogs for Drillings. The LK are known to have been used in a wide range of weapons ranging from Sauer Single Shot Bolt Action rifles, double Rifles and Sauer “Drillings” (three-barrelled weapons : side by side shotgun with rifle barrel underneath). They can both be considered Express cartridges.

The 11.15x52R LK is known with a shot loading which is used in a 12,16 and 20g adaptors.

Note that this topic title is now incorrect and has nothing to do with Steel Cases …


#15
  1. If you say LK is for “lancaster with a Kugel bullet”, it means it belongs to the family of all the other german all brass shotshells with rond lead bullet
    Therefore it is a shotshell.
  2. When you say “may have shotshells origins”, the fact you use the word “may” means you are not sure, which is in contracdiction with the fact you assure LK is for Lancaster Kugel.
  3. I have never said this case was not used as a sporting ctge case.
    I said it was used as shotshell, which is a lot different
  4. Coming back to your first sentence : “may have origins from shotshells but they ARE NOT SHOTSHELLS”.
    The fact you use the present time “are not” means nowadays they are not anymore used as shotshells.
    And I agree with you (except if some guy having an old gun is still reloading and using them).
    But if we list shotshells only still in use nowadays there will be only a few in comparaison with the 300 differents kinds used in the old days
    About me, my purpose is to list all the ones having been used, recently or not, therfore for me THEY ARE SHOTSHELLS
  5. Always about the same sentence, you perhaps wanted to say that:
    "After been used as shotshells they were after year xxx only used in drillings (or express) with a riffled barrel"
    If so, I would be interested to know the year.
    Because the problem is : in many catalogues (even after 120) they are listed as shotshells ctges !
    After 1930 they are not listed anymore, which is normal because shotshells were standardised in germany
    JP

#16

[quote=“jean-pierre”]Hi WBD,
a) In your list you writte some ctges with laquered steel cases.

b) In your previous post you wrote:
" RWS are know to have produced “copper washed steel” (CWS) cases from as early as 1916 and also “laquered steel” cases in the late 1930’s and '40s"

c) My question was “in the beginning of the thirties” (in 1930 to be more accurate)

d) Therefore at this date (1930) only copper washed steel cases were existing.
Could you please confirm ?

jp[/quote]

The steel case


#17

Thanks Dutch, that is very interesting information.

Do you know any other sporting cartridges (other than 7x57) that the Laquered CWS cases were used ?


#18

here are two laquered CWS 7.9x57mm sporting rounds from DWM that I already had scans made of. I might have more, I’ll have to check.


#19

I don


#20

Hi Dutch;
“If the CWS case development was starting in 1935, why do you think these cases were made in 1930.”

I explained it :
Because it was written Stahl on a RWS drawing (which means steel), I didn’t know if it was meaning steel or if it was a standard from another manufacturer (Stahl)

JP