Steyr M1911 SA sporter in "Kal 9mm"


#1

Following a posting on Gunboards (Mannlicher board) of a Steyr 1911 SA Sporting Rifle, in “Kal 9mm” I opined that it was for the FN & Browning developed FSA Browning 9mm (AKA .35 Remington Auto) as used in the Remington M8 selfloader of 1906.

Firstly, I know FN made the ammo and stripper clips for the M8 9mm,
Question, did K&C or G.Roth make this ammo also, for the European market, seeing that the example of the Steyr 1911-made commercial sporter looks much more than a simple prototype, but more like a production piece by the Commercial section of Steyr OEWG.

Anybody got cartridge examples or Catalogue references?

BTW, the rifle in question is a gas-trap ( muzzle capture) gas-operated turn-bolt-head rifle, with a 4 or 5 round internal box magazine, in classic “Mannlicher Sporting” carbine style ( full stock).

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#2

Here is the firearm to which Doc is referring. I saw it on an auction site back a while again and…being interested in vintage semiautomatic sporting rifles, wanted to know more. Someone must… I hadn’t really noticed the stripper clip “ears” before DocAV pointed them out. Thanks


#3

9 x 56 mm Mannlicher-Schönauer sounds like a more logical option to me. That semiautomatic rifle was patented by OEWG in July 10, 1912.


#4

Hola Fede,
The Opening in the receiver looks a bit short for a 9x56 MS cartridge, using the width of the Clip guide as a “datum” to work out the receiver opening length.

Anybody else have any clues…

Doc AV


#5

Doc: I realize you wanted an answer rather than more questions, but I wonder if this rifle doesn’t have a Bang-type system (muzzle cup that moves forward upon firing, activating a pull-rod which via a bellcrank activates the bolt directly or via a short op rod) rather than the G.41/Czech Vz52 system of an annular piston mounted around the barrel which drives an operating rod to the rear (in the G.41 version the piston is mounted just behind the muzzle, in the Czech rifle is is at the mid-point of the barrel). The location of the front sight suggests a true Bang type to me, and it was enjoying some interest at this time. Jack


#6

I consider the “Bang” system as a type of “Gas trap”, being placed at the Muzzle, with a covering sleeve. The Gas-trap Garand was slightly different, in that the “trap,” diverted the gas into a lower gas Piston cylinder, bur the “un-drilled barrel concept” was also part of the Bang system. ( other “Gas trap/Bang systems” were in all the German SA Military rifles developed prior to the G43…Hitler said “no gas-tappet systems” in the early 1930s, so all the designers went with "gas trap, recoil, or other systems which didn’t require drilling a hole in the barrel.)

The Later Czech Vz50/52 systems, with the annular Pistons ( a Walther design, pre-WW II, for a possible “assault” rifle) are Gas tap systems, as they have a gas feed or feeds via holes drilled midway along the barrel.

IN anycase, the rifle in question will have to remain a mystery until the new owner does “take it down” and show the internal mechanism?

Or are there Patent drawings available…Fede, you seem to have a lot of access that we common mortals don’t have, to designs etc…

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#7

I thought was useful to distinguish between the sliding muzzle cap-cum-pullrod system of the original Bang rifle with the system seen in the German G.41 where the cylinder is fixed and gas diverted at the muzzle back onto an annular gas piston. They both do, of course, have the lack of a gas port in common. The feature of the carbine as shown that suggested to me the original Bang rifle was the fact the front sight is set back behind the gas cap or cylinder rather than being mounted on it. It would be mighty nice if we could see this interesting specimen taken apart so we wouldn’t have to guess! Jack


#8

Hola Doc AV, although this is a practically unknown rifle, OEWG applied for several patents covering different aspects of the mechanism.

This drawing is from the July 10, 1912 patent:

And this one is dated March 10, 1909 (applied november 13, 1907):

Note the 7-shot clip!


#9

Wow, Muchas Gracias, Fede.
Los Illustraciones mi gustan muchos.

Now tell me, can the Patent drawings reflect the actual final construction of the Pictured rifle? A seven round Schoenauer Rotary mag?

Maybe the Patent drawings with the long , RN bullets indicate a 6,5MS cartridge, but looking at the Photos, I think the Opening in the top is for a shorter cartridge. And Patent drawings don’t usually show the calibre unless it is pertinent to the design.

The search continues.

A two-Board research. Now we are really getting good use of the Internet.

Doc AV

Propsero Ano Nuevo! a todos los amigos y primos en Argentina!


#10

Getting back to the original question, the only European manufacturers of the 9x48 Browning (.35 Remington) that I am aware of were FN and the Sevilla Arsenal of Spain after WW2.

In Spain it was known to be produced for the General D.Gonzalo and has hs dates S 7,62 62 and S 7,9 59 and 57, loaded in small lots with SP bullets for hunting using 8mm Mauser or 7.62x51 hs bunters.

It was not listed in Roth or Keller catalogs that I have studied.