Stiletto Systems AP and "rocket" cartridges


#1

From a 2018 published doc of Stiletto Systems (Ukrainian company based in the UK) I have extracted these images.
http://www.stiletto.uk.com/

Very informative and the tables are speaking for themselfes. Used cores are all TC.
And one not shown but claimed is a 7.62x25 AP. Can you hear me Jon? :-)

AP%20Rounds_2018_AP%20Rounds_2018_0203


#2

@wolfganggross Found some more stuff for your list ;)


#3

EOD,
Great stuff. The 9mmP bullets look a good deal like the Slovak bullets by Mr Kuracina which showed up some years ago. Reported he cooperated with some Ukrainians on this bullet. I wonder if the Stiletto 9x19mm Rocket rounds are a result of this cooperation?

Cheers,
Lew


#4

Lew, I am to 99.9% sure that the Ukrainian Stiletto and the Slovak ones came off the same machines.
Maybe it could be worth to check if Kuracina worked with or for Stiletto.
Did you check the patents of the rocket cartridges if his name is showing up there?


#5

Oh sweet mother of all that is tungsten come to daddy!


#6

Am I the only one here finding this 9mm ‘rocket bullet’ a pretty silly and useless concept?


#7

I’d like to see the ballistic data first before commenting.


#8


Their 9x19 bullet is not a ‘rocket’ by definition, as the opening in the base lacks any Venturi nozzle, and pressures involved (3000 kg/cm2) clearly indicate that it requires a gun barrel to keep its shape. It is also obviously depends on the rifling to achieve rotation.
So, in my opinion, it is a sort of Benelli AUPO-type projectile loaded into a conventional case.Longer bullet with large hollow cavity at the rear obviously increase friction inside the barrel, inducing additional wear and heat transfer


#9

and while we’re at it, here’s my favorite:


#10

Mpopenker,

I basically agree with you. The description of the Stiletto pistol is real PhD level stuff!!!

The “rocket” bullet is unlikely to be more than a projectile containing the propellent so the gases do not have to accelerate down the barrel-the Langweiler “impuls-Antrieb” or impulse propulsion principle he published in June 1939 and the basis for the so called German “rocket” bullets. The Venturi (convergent/divergent) nozzle simply trades heat and pressure for exhaust gas velocity, and requires a VERY significant pressure drop across the nozzle to achieve supersonic velocity of the exhaust gas. A rocket can’t operate in an unported barrel because the exhaust gas pressurizes the barrel behind the projectile and prevents sonic flow in the throat of the nozzle.

All this is well and good, but Rocket Bullets will probably attract more attention than “impuls-propulsion” bullets.

More important to me is that I’d love to have some of these in my collection, regardless of whether they are real rockets or not. They are interesting examples of salesmanship/showmanship, probably rather than technological excellence. The Hornady Zombie loads are an excellent example of a success of salesmanship/showmanship!

Cheers,
Lew


#11

Above it was about “useless”. The determination of what it exactly is is one thing but performance the other.
Still like to see ballistic data like Vo, V50, V100…V300 and also comparisons in piercing capabilities and last but not least bullet weights.


#12

The 9mm looks like it would be super light weight and have a lot of powder capacity. Wouldn’t slowburning powder inside the bullet eject itself un-burned out the back of the bullet?


#13

If it is a solid block then maybe not.

I just looked up one of their videos and there they have a “rocket” 9x19 with a Vo of 559 m/s.
They pierced class 4 steel plates with it and also 6.4 mm armor plates of BTR 60 and 70 (side plates).

The Vo for the “rocket” 9x18 (Mak) is 523 m/s. It pierced 4 mm of ST3 steel.


#14

Edit above.


#15

They claim max pressure at about 3000 kg/cm2.
AFAIK, this is way above ‘NATO standard’ (~2500 kg/cm2) and more that Russian hot-loaded AP (which is usually rated at 2800). I seriously wonder what kind of barrel life you can achieve with that lever of pressures AND noticeably increased friction area of the bullet AND the fact that bullet walls are pushed OUT and into the rifling by powder load burning inside.


#16

Alex, you can send me one any time! ;)


#17

I notice that one display has a 300 WSM. Are there any military or police forces using the 300 WSM?


#18

Are there any military or police forces using the 300 WSM?

I don’t think so. However, there were known attempts to rechamber old Mosin M1891/30 rifles from 7.62x54R to .300WSM.


#19

Their description of the pistol’s functions makes the semi-automatic blow back principal sound like a new revelation, and also sounds like a translation to English from Ukrainian. Given the higher friction issues in the barrel mentioned by Maxim, I almost wonder if they meant to try and describe the pistol as a “blow-forward” design like the Mannlicher 1894? That would be something interesting.


#20

Given they do fire 9x19 it must be a retarded blowback system as otherwise the gun would not survive.
Though such systems do exist they tend to be forgotten.
The Stiletto pistol looks much like a P-38 with enhancements, at least the grip unit.

@ Jon, yes, any time and without prior notice! :-)
The thing is that this was only tested/developed but has no current status there.

As for the friction area here a fired one where it appears like the rifled area in question is less than 9mm in length. I do not have comparisons on hand but think there are 9x19 subsonic bullets with longer friction areas.

Stiletto%209mm