Strange 9mm P08 mE by fb from 41 & 42


#1

I have a pretty good selection of date and lot numbers from Mansfeld A.G. (fb) from WWII-about 45 specimens. Based on these it appears that fb produced the following, all with the fb St 5 42 style headstamp:
Brass case-124gr blt-brass pri —Lot 1 & 2 of 41
Steel case-124gr blt-brass pri —from lot 1 of 41 through lot 2 of 43
Steel case-black mE blt-brass pri —from lot 5 of 42 through lot 9 of 43
Steel case-GM mE blt-brass pri —from lot 1 of 44 through lot 11 of 44
Steel case-black mE blt-zinc plated steel pri —from lot 3 of 44 through lot 1 of 45

These are aside from the weird stuff like a lacquered steel case 41 with a casemetal code and a couple of brass case rounds from 42 with steel case headstamps and such.

I was going through an old collection and the four rounds pictured below stood out. They are lots 3 & 4 of 41 and 4 & 5 of 42, with black mE bullets and steel primers. There is no evidence of a black primer sealbut my other fb loads with a black mE bullet also lack a primer seal.

These are so far outside the rest of the fb loads I have that I have to question them. They could be a mix of old cases loaded at the end of 43 or early 44 with the initial 08/40 steel primers Mansfeld received and the last of their black mE bullets, and all could have come from the same box. They could be fb cases loaded by somebody else who was using the steel primers earlier. Without a box label there is no way of telling.

All are in pretty good to excellent shape and there is no evidence of tampering or reloading.

Has anyone else seen similar loads with fb headstamps?

Am interested in your thoughts.

Cheers,
Lew


#2

The central case (fb 5 42) looks to have a black ring around the primer pocket, isn’t it?


#3

Treshkin, I just used an instrument to to examine the primer and primer pocket. All the rounds look like there may have been a seal used inside the primer pocket where the walls of the primer pocket meet the side of the primer. This is similar to other German 9x19mm loads from WWII where there is no obvious primer seal that appears to have been applied after the primer is in place.

There is no evidence of the distinct paint edge on the sides of the primer of any of these four rounds. This distinct paint edge is typically the result of a paint seal being applied after the primer is in place. Usually this can be seen with the proper insturment, even when the cartridge is pretty worn.

Cheers,

Lew


#4

Lew I for fb with steel primers,I have fb St 1 45, steel laqc.case, steel primer, black annulus, unpainted (copper) bullet, magentic case and bullet.
About another one fb, I have an fb St 44 5 too, with a brass primer and brass-colour magnetic bullet. Data databasa says ‘rare’, can you tell me if it’s true this is a rare one??


#5

Jaco,

Your fb St 1 45 with steel primer and copper bullet (actually an mE bullet after they became standard production) is known in Lots 3-6 of 1944 and 1 or 45

I have never seen a brass primer on any 1945 fb load. I have never seen a brass color bullet on any WWII German made P08 round by any manufacturer. It is totally new to me. The last known fb P08 loads known are lot 2 of 1945 and these cases have the dash indicating a single flashhole.

Cheers,
Lew


#6

Hallo Lew
Do I misunderstand you?
“I have never seen a brass color bullet on any WWII German made P08 round by any manufacturer”.
There are a lot. With steel cases and with brass cases.


#7

Jaco,

I think we misunderstand each other on what we call “brass” color. The bullets in your photo above are what I call Gilding Metal (GM) or copper color, like the top bullet in my photo below. The bottom bullet is what I call “Brass” color. it is distinctly more yellow than the top bullet. At least it is to my tired old eyes!

Cheers,
Lew


#8

Lew,

My fb loads from 1942 thru 1944 with blackened mE projectiles all have black primer seal. Also my fb rounds with zinc plated steel primers all have black primer sealant. I only have a measly 28 rounds to go by from lot 1 of 41 thru Iot 2 of 45, so that is all I can add.

Joe


#9

Lew,

Logical misunderstanding, that’s why a pic says more than 1000 words :-)

Grtz
Jaco