Strange 9x19 round-DAG Shortrange & Czech Poison Bullet


#1

hello
i have a question about this round (it’s a real round ?)
what the purpose of the bullet ?

another question;anyone see the “poison bullet” made in “tchecoslovaquia” (if i remember ,the bullet in black with plastic tip covered with yellow paint ,or the bullet had black and yellow tip with plastic tip

thank in advance for your response


#2

That looks like the pic of the controlled-range load that was in the recent munitionsauktion.de auction. It’s a rare experimental bullet that is meant to have limited range. Others here know more detail than I do.


#3

hello
yes it from this site


#4

This round is totally legit. I got mine quite a few years ago and it was rare and expensive then!

Cheers,
Lew


#5

No question it is legitimate. I have one as well. The source for mine was beyond question, in my opinion.


#6

hello
thank for your responses
ok for a reduced range experimental


#7

I think the idea of this round was that some forces (I don’t understand what just looking at it, and have no “official” information on it) caused those “flaps” (Squares) on the bullet jacket to open up and they became like the air brake on an airplane, slowing the velocity down.

There is another type where the bullet jacket extends beyond the base of the bullet core forming a hollow base. The jacket has cuts around the circumferance of of the base and as it leaves the barrel, gas expulsion at the base of the bullet, inside the hollow base, expand the flaps of the bullet to the same end as explained abouve. I understand how that one works. It is hard to identify of itself, as you cannot see the form of the bullet as seated in the case. I seem to recall they have a blue tip, however, and are German with German post-war headstamping. When I have more time, I will se if I have a specimen and check the particulars.


#8

The Czechoslavakian ‘poison cartridge’ identifies as follows:

  • brass case, no headstamp.
  • nickel covered lead bullet.
  • dark green plastic cap with yellow dot.

The bullet is a hollow point closed with the plastic cap; it contains approx. 120 milligram KCN (potassium cynanide).
I have only one in my collection. Unfortunately it has heavily corroded in the past years. Probably the KCN forms acide with poist from the air, which in turn corrodes the nickel.
This round is not a fake or a hoax!


#9

hello
thank for your response
i see the round on an article on french arm magasine “CIBLES” if i had good remember
but i don’t remember if the cartridge shows nickel plated bullet (i see black bullet)


#10

ammogun, My Czech poison bullet load is identical to that described by EMZ and has the same corrosion problems. About every 6 or 8 months I clean it and oil it and hope for the best and so far. I am still getting green a bit around the casemouth, and of course the case is badly stained on the outside but overall it is not in bad shape. I have seen 4 or 5 in other collections that have not been cleaned and oiled and they are in bad shape, some basically balls of corrosion that can hardly be described as a cartridge.

I also have an almost identical round that must be a display version because it appears somewhat polished and has no corrosion. It was part of a set of similar display rounds, two others with plastic tip plugs, one dark blue and one rust red. also included were other rounds-all unheadstamped with silver tips. There is another set of these, including the display poison bullet load that are in an advanced collection in the US. This set has one or two that I don’t have and I have one or two that are missing from this set.

Does anyone have any idea who made these rounds, both the poison loads and the display rounds???

Cheers,
Lew


#11

hello
thank for your responses
on the picture magazine the round look like new ,perhaps a display round with a small amount of KCN showed out of the round (if i had good remember because i lost the magazine)

the case is similar to sellier bellot “normal” production but without headstamp


#12

Here are the loads I mentioned in the previous email.


All are unheadstamped and have magnetic bullets. From left to right the overall weight is: 144gr; 155gr; 169.6gr; 148.6gr; 142gr; 185gr; 135gr

The poison bullet mentioned by EMZ is on the far left. The green corrosion seems to have stabilized. Since this photo I have cleaned the corrosion with a wire bore brush and gun oil and there seems to be no additional corrosion.

The other six projectiles are the display rounds I mentioned. I’m very interested in any information or ideas Forum members have on these.

Any help appreciated!

Cheers,
Lew

PS: Ammogun, the base of these cartridges do not look like S&B to me.

Left is the dummy poison blt, center is the actual poison blt and right is an S&B case from the same period. The shape of the rim looks different to me as does the primer-but maybe it is only my old eyes.


#13

Well, I should keep my yap shut, but I can’t when friends are involved. I would worry like hell about any round with bullet contents as described in this thread that were corroding the cartridge and leaking corrosion at the case mouth, which the cartridge in the picture obviously is. The contents and its fumes are nothing to play with. I, myself, wouldn’t touch one of these rounds bare-handed, not without at least a surgical mask over my face, which might not be sufficient protection anyway, although it would certainly improve the scenery for those in contact with me.

I am probably being an old fussy worry-wart, but…???


#14

I read the Biography of Harry Patch, the last surviving British soldier to serve in the Trenches. He died in July 2009 aged 111.

He describes being given this job as a child by his father: Mixing KCN and water in a bucket. He would then spray this from a syringe to kill wasps if there was a wasps’ nest the garden. He said that he never wore a mask or any form of protection. The cyanide was available from the local Chemist’s shop. All he had to do to get it was sign his name.

Someone else on a clay shoot I used to go to said he used to sprinkle powdered cyanide over peanuts to poison squirrels. This was back when it was still easily available.

Of course I’m not saying that you don’t need to take care when handling it.


#15

oups
i think i make a big mistake
the black bullet with yellow dot may be bulgarian and not czech (but the cases appear to make by sellier bellot)
if i can buy a new magazine i will happy to show this picture


#16

The corrosion could be a result of the poison contents somehow mixing with the gunpowder and causing corrosion similar to what happens in some old WWII .45 tracers due to component mixture & breakdown. It might be that the corrosion is inert / oxidized by the time the green stuff bleeds out onto the brass, but I wouldn’t rub my eyes or touch a sandwich after handling it any case.


#17

As the corrosion seems the be coming from the case rather than the bullet, could it simply be badly manufactured powder with high acid residue?


#18

A few years ago I noticed that the corrosion started just below de plastic cap and spread out to the case. I didn’t pay much attention to it. Due to moving to another home, my collection was disregarded too long and I noticed about a year ago that the corrosion had spread along the whole bullet. Sh@&%t !