Subsonic 7.62x39mm


#1

What do we know about subsonic 7.62x39mm loads besides the typical Soviet type US? Who else loaded this type of cartridge?

AKMS


Subsonic combloc rifle rounds?
#2

Speaking of military & police only (no civilian):

USSR (besides the regular “US” also at least one experimental version with different inner construction of the projectile)
Finland (Lapua & Sako even a subsonic tracer)
Azerbaijan
Ukraine (if my memory serves me right)
Yugoslavia
Czech Republic (S&B)
GDR (experimental)
USA (experiments if I was informed correctly)

The subsonic 5.45x39 are also an interesting subject…


#3

From what I know, 5.45 US ammo is cleared for use only in AKS-74UB compact assault rifles, as its bullets can sometimes stuck in longer barrels of AK-74 and especially in RPK-74, with disastrous results
also, to the best of my knowledge, various Russian Army recon / spetsnaz units prefer to use either older AKM / AKMS with 7,62 US ammo and PBS-1 silencers, or dedicated 9x39 AS and/or VSS weapons.
I haven’t seen any ‘action’ photos of the AKS-74UB with PBS-4 silencers, if this has any meaning.


#4

Max, I was more about the cartridge variations. So far I know of 3-4.


#5

Thank you both for the information!

Any pics of other than the “US” types? Markings, colored tips?

I know of a load reportedly manufactured by Rhodesia or South Africa using the MK VII ball projectile from .303 British cartridges. I found one in a box of assorted caliber “floor sweepings” from one of the larger importers about 15 years ago. A few years back, some more turned up from a similar source, but had remnants of a blue tip color if memory serves me correctly. Any more info on these out there?

AKMS


#6

AKMS, are those you mention now confirmed subsonics? Jon had posted those and there was an Israeli relation if I got it right:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9806&p=70696&hilit=7.62x39+israel#p70696

About markings:
SAKO:

  • blue tip (some with a greensih shimmer)
  • subsonic tracer: light green tip
  • experimental subsonic: soft point, no markings
    LAPUA:
  • blue case head
  • blue tip and blue case head
    S&B police subsonic: purple tip and primer
    Ukraine & Azerbaijan: as the Soviet “US” black over green
    GDR: white tip
    Yugoslavia: mo markings, projectile with slightly blunter/rounder tip than usual ball
    USA (if it really is a subsonic): no markings, bell case with blue PA and translucent geen laquer on the primer, 2 opposing tool marks on projectile

#7

Yes, those were the cartridges I was referring to. I assume they came out of Israel, as some of the cartridges in the mix of odds and ends were Israeli 5.56 short range loads. I was hoping that more info on the origins of these cartridges had come to light since the original thread.

AKMS


#8

EOD,

Please post a picture of the 5.45 x 45 variations you are referring too. I’d love to see them! I only have the ‘common’ one with black over green tip, red mouth and primer seals. Headstamp is 270 87. I’ve been given one to section and will post the results when the time comes.

Thanks,

Paul


#9

Do you mean black over green? Black over red is API, no?

AKMS


#10

Hi Rob,

Yes, of course you are right. Correction made.

Thanks,
Paul


#11

I have found no further info on those IDF/RSA subsonic rounds, although I am pretty sure they did arrive in the US from an Israeli source.


#12

[quote=“PaulSmith”]EOD,

Please post a picture of the 5.45 x 45 variations you are referring too. I’d love to see them! I only have the ‘common’ one with black over green tip, red mouth and primer seals. Headstamp is 270 87. I’ve been given one to section and will post the results when the time comes.

Thanks,

Paul[/quote]

Paul, I wish I had all of them!!!
There are:

  • black over green tip
  • black tip (experimental)
  • red tip (experimental)
  • purple tip

When you are going to cut one please keep in mind that the core of the black over green tipped 5.45x39 is made of tungsten carbide.
Black tipped ones have steel cores and the purple ones are lead cored. No idea as for the red one.


#13

[quote=“EOD”]
There are:

  • black over green tip
  • black tip (experimental)
  • red tip (experimental)
  • purple tip

When you are going to cut one please keep in mind that the core of the black over green tipped 5.45x39 is made of tungsten carbide.
Black tipped ones have steel cores and the purple ones are lead cored. No idea as for the red one.[/quote]

Actual ciorrect list of known 5.45 US is (ammo-collection.com/index.php?ti … 0%A3%D0%A1):

  • black-green tip (7U1 - oficially adopted)

  • purple tip (lead core, 539 80 known only)

  • black tip (the first cartridges with reduced powder charge, bullet is standard 7N6)

  • white bullet (ballistic standard, in other case similar to 7U1)

Sorry but nor red tip 5.45 US is known here. If this specimen come up in late 90th on western market I assume this is fake (like 5.45 API).


#14

I do not know details of the red one since I been told by somebody from St. Petersburg (K.S.) who was well into this in his active time.

The white tipped ballistic standard makes sense though.


#15

[quote=“EOD”]I do not know details of the red one since I been told by somebody from St. Petersburg (K.S.) who was well into this in his active time.

The white tipped ballistic standard makes sense though.[/quote]

I suspect K.S. just forgot actual color of tip. Depending on the light and density of the varnish, color can be shift to red or to violet.

According to the official documents all US and ball cartridges had ballistic standard variants (including Nagant without any marks except on package). But there was no tracer or AP or other special BS loadings because of they had to have equal to ball bullet trajectories (US required BS because of they had different trajectories and required special marks on scope). But there were some interesting BS loadings: 7N10 and 7N13 produced by Barnaul (I suspect because of no ball rounds were produced by that time).