Swedish M/39B repacked as Danish M41?


#1

On another forum a collector was asking about his battle pack of Danish M41 in green vinyl sleeve which contains the trapezoidal boxes having 36rd stripper clips of 9mm (just like Swedish design) and the photos show headstamp on the ammo of 070 8 0 and also red case neck & primer seal just like what M/39B would have. Is this repacked M/39B, or just reused or purchased brass with typical M41 ball loaded into it?

He shows another box of Danish M41 which is what I have always typically seen as that type of ammo, and what has the usual AMA headstamp for that type:


#2

I think it is M39/B but someone needs to check the weight to confirm.

Lew


#3

It may be that Denmark simply does not recognize (use) the two different designations for ball ammunition,
even though they probably should, since the M39/B load from Sweden is very “hot,” well above M39 or Danish M41 pressures, I believe. It is basically one of the few true Submachine Gun loads and while Sweden used it in pistols
also, many in that country believe it should not have been. Cracked upper receivers on Lahti M40 pistols were not uncommon using this ammunition, and a friend of mine from almost 40 years ago (I toured Germany with him, as well
as Southern Sweden) cracked his SIG P210 slide using it in service.

The box itself is not a repack of a Swedish box or Danish box. The initials HMAK, which at the moment, the meaning of which alludes me, is purely Danish and the lot number from Swedish Plant 070 indicate that this was a contract for Denmark, so the designation of M41 is undoubtedly correct, regardless of the Swedish designation for the load provided.

The cartridge weights are inconclusive because it is possible that the M41 round as loaded in Sweden used the Swedish bullet for the M39/B, which as I recall, has a much thicker jacket at the nose than does the older M39 bullets, much like the nose on the commercial Norma AP ammunition. However, it might be loaded for Denmark to lower pressure using less powder (or it might also be the identical load - I really don’t know). A round from a similar Danish box in my collection, lot number 002-070-80 has an overall cartridge weight of 172.0 grains while a Swedish issue round from my collection, of unknown lot number but headstamped from factory 070 in 1972, weighed 170.7 grains. That is within normal weight differences for cartridges of the same loading, but with manufacture eight years apart, and the possiblity of different powders used, it is not, in my opinion, conclusive to identical loadings of itself.
The color of the seals on the Danish round are almost a violet color - a very dark red, as opposed to the normal bright red of Swedish Ball M39/B, but that could be entirely meaningless as well.

AMA in Denmark has seemed not to have made any 9mm for some time now. Most of the military ammunition see,s to come from 070 in Sweden, and police loads are contracted out to other makers, Fiocchi being one of them.

Perhaps one of our two knowledgeable Danish collectors could sort this out for us.

John Moss

John Moss


#4

With this I can help out: HMAK = Hærens Materielkommando (Army Material Command). HMAK exists from 1967 to 2006.


#5

The first time I looked at this thread, the box image didn’t come up. This time I realized that I had this round. I weighed it and it is 172gr oaw so the bullet is about 100gr. My Swedish M39/B loads weigh in about 172gr also.

Cheers,

Lew


#6

According to the lot number the upper box is made in Sweden.

There are also Danish ones with a box marking “with steel cap” (in Danish of course) which have that thick jacket as the Swedish ones and it is still marked as M41.
I think I gave you this box Lew.

Any relation between all these?


#7

If the Danes have a special marking for “steel cap” (GMCS jacket?) 9mm ammunition, but still refer
to it as M41, that would tend to substantiate my theory that they call all 9mm ball ammo made for
them Model 41, regardless of details like jacket material and design, velocity, and the like. Thanks for that information EOD.

Thanks, Defender, for the translation of HMAK. I knew it would be “Hærens Materiel” but I couldn’t figure out the
"AK" part of it, thinking it was probably two words with the "A: standing for some form of the word “Ammunition.”

John Moss


#8

EOD, Here is the box I got from you. Thanks again!!!

The overall weight of the cartridge (oaw) is 174gr, pretty close to the Swedish M39/B.

Lew


#9

Lew,

Great box. I have never seen it before. Entirely different format than their earlier ones. I think that
date of “88” is pretty close to the end of production of 9mm Para at AMA. At least, I don’t recall seeing
any later. Is it the latest you have? I don’t save dates, so I don’t pay as close attention as I should.

John Moss


#10

So, if I gather this correctly, there is not only the typical Swedish M/39B in the typical military boxes from Sweden, and also the commercial style Norma boxes marked as Index-211, but there is also Swedish style boxes with 070 stamped brass having M/39B projectiles packed for Denmark with HMAK markings on the box, and now this AMA stamped brass with violet seals in the box shown which also has M/39B bullets? - due to the description of “Med stalkappe”??

As Spock would say - Fascinating…


#11

Come on DK, you know nothing is ever that simple in cartridge collecting!!!

The AMA load has a much blunter bullet than the Swedish M39/B bullet.

Lew


#12

So is it a slightly different Danish version of the M/39B, sort of like the 9mm FN experimental variant which had a very similar inner steel jacket design? Or are we just talking typical ball projectile with typical copper-clad steel jacket? From the talk earlier on in the thread about what the marking “steel hardcap” meant for this ammo I was under the impression it was either M/39B or a copy thereof. Either way I’m excited, it doesn’t take much.


#13

Come on Lew. You know nothing is ever that simple in cartridge collecting. My round
from the Danish box Lot 002-070-80, headstamped 8 0 070, has the same bullet profile
as the standard Model 39/B Swedish Load. The colored seals are not as bright red as I
am used to seeing on 070 M39/Bs, but is also not as purple as the seal on your cartridge,
that color more resembling AMA production. I wish I had more than one single box
specimen with my box. I would pull the bullet and cut it in half. I suspect it is just a
standard Swedish bullet as used in their M39/B.

No end to this stuff, is there. You probably really do need to collect every single lot
number and date in this stuff to have a real handle on what’s going on with these
contract rounds especially. Too late for me to start, thank God.

John Moss


#14

Only commenting on what I do know and that is sadly not much with only two years “collecting”…
1988 is about the latest I have seen in AMA produced 9mm. That self-adhesive label style is also seen in 7,62 Nato, and my guess is it’s for target use, i.e. for the national military shooting team.
M/39 have a lot of cracked handguns on it’s concience, probably the most numerous victim are SIG P 210 (M/49 Neuhausen) with both cracked slides and frames. The M/39 were mostly used in the M/49 SMG (“Hovea”) vaabenhistoriskselskab.dk/ar … editid1=22 hence the 36 shot clips for the swedish model magazine loader.
Standard AMA 50 pcs boxes were until the mid 80’s of the almost square form1, but from around 1985 got a more oblong shape2. Contract ammo has since HMAK (1967, thanks, Defender) usually been packed in plain white/buff boxes with simple black printing and the lot number in black or violet ink stamped on, both squarish and oblong boxes.*3 Green standard NATO (M2A1) ammo cans have the same info printed on them in yellow. Whether contract ammo were packed at the factory or here at a HMAK facility, I do not know.
I am sure Torben (and Defender) can add a lot more :-)
Soren

*1 DK’s 070 box.
*2 Lew’s 1988 box. Plastic or carboard inserts.
*3 In 5,56 it gets even more complex…


#15

[quote=“mausernut”]
1988 is about the latest I have seen in AMA produced 9mm. …[/quote]

Soren, I have seen a box from 1993 with AMA lot number.


#16

OK… I’ll see a guy who has some 9 mm AMA for sale (though at a steep price) he might be able to tell us exactly when they stopped making it, unless somebody on the forum can tell…?
Soren


#17

The latest headstamp I have with AMA at the top and the date at the bottom is 1986 on a ball cartridge and 91 on a blank.

With the NATO mark on top and AMA and the year on the bottom is 1990 on a ball cartridge.

With just AMA and the year across the bottom it is 94 on a blank.

Hope this helps!

Lew


#18

Soren, I have seen a box from 1993 with AMA lot number.[/quote]

And here it is:

Lew’s box with the additional “Med stålkappe” exists without the blue text marking too:

Just my opinion: This unusual white label is not primary military. With the AMA (founded 1676) bomb-‘trademark’ (and the missing HMAK and NATO-signs) it looks really like a production for ‘civilian’ use to me. Police? Target shooting? I hope someone knows more …
Here is a box from 1995:


#19

Lew and Defender - great box labels. I have never seen any of these before. aMy last Danish 9 mm boxes are from the HMAK and perhaps the mid to late 1980s, with the label printed right on the box, not a stick on label, I think. My last box for blanks goes back to the early 1980s. Thanks for posting these pictures.

John Moss


#20

While we’re on the subject or the M/39B and its projectile construction - Is the Nammo “BNT HP7” in fact a clone of M/39B, or is it just imported M/39B ammunition which is packaged / labeled for Norway? Or is that not the same thing at all? I was under the impression that the 2 were linked, but there is very little information on the BNT HP7 that I have been able to find, other than a Nammo brochure copy which a collector had emailed me.