Swedish M/39B repacked as Danish M41?


#21

Was at the indoor 15 meter range tonite and my friend was there and told me that a few lots, maybe no more than lot 4 was made in 1994 and thereafter only a special lot for target shooting was made. That must be what Defender has with the white label.
Soren


#22

Torben has mailed me his datasheet on the M/39B cartridge and in that he tells us: M/39B was called M/41 in Denmark and was considered equal to the danish made M/41 that HL/HA/AMA made from 1941 onwards. The PJJ marked production for the germans was the same cartridge. M/39B was imported for use with the M/41 and M/44 smg’s.
So John is right in his assumptions, M/41 is M/39B and every other military 9mm para imported here.
AMA moved from Copenhagen to Elling near Frederikshavn, Northern Jutland, in 1971 and only took up 9mm production in 1983 to NATO specifications. Between 1970 and 1983 9mm was imported.

A quick look in my own collection:
Imported:
RG 2Z 1954 +1956
Newer imported:
IMI 2004
FNB 2006 (lot 124, from a picture of an ammo can)

Morten Støen has the following confirmed hs’s (from the “danish” special edition of “Bulletin”):
(No Nato star): 1955-70 + 86
(with star): 1983-94

Soren


#23

If the M/39B is as hot as John mentioned, does this mean the danish army used their pistols along the years with ammo loaded for smg’s?
Hard to believe and confusing me …


#24

The Swedish M/39B has a projectile weight of 107 grain,
AMA has a projectile weight of 116 grain,
FNB has a projectile weight of 124 grain,
All known in Denmark as the 9MM SKPT M/41
The Danish Brigade brought home just after the war
Swedish M/39 as in Denmark became known M/39S


#25

Soren/Torben/Defender, what will be a 9x19 box with NATO cross and military stock no but without “M41” made by Fiocchi in 2000?

There is also 2006 Swiss (Thun) production with “M41” but without NATO cross.


#26

Well, another big answer disappeared for me. I also tried saving an answer the other day, and I guess it is floating around in Heaven somewhere, because I couldn’t find any way to go back to a saved answer. I have no trouble finding saved correspondence on my email. Very much on this Forum is not self-explanatory. I am looking right now, above what I am typing, of a long bar of things that should allow BOLD, Italic, underlining, etc. I have never been able to make it work. There is no explanation HOW to make it work. I admit I am computer stupid, but my personal feeling is this entire site needs revision to make it more user friendly. I still have the problem of, while trying to proof read my answers before posting, keeping the text from rolling back to the top. It is becoming tedious. I am not the only one having problems, which I can see from other comments on posts.

Please, don’t send me any big instructions. The instructions should be there for all to see on this site, and should not require things like saving long answers, etc.

A quick summary, which does not detail at all what I wanted to say, so it will make the answer sound very weak, but it is all I will do:

Lengthy discussion was held by me with two different collector friends, both Swedish reserve military officers, about the cracking of Lahti slides by M39/B ammo.

One Swedish friend used to buy cracked Lahtis for next to nothing. I purchased from Sherwood International brand new upper receivers and exported them to him. He built service guns and made a lot of money selling them at high prices in Germany, primarily.

Yes, it would be stupid for any government to make two loads, both rated for pistols, with one being injurious to the weapon. Who can explain what governments do. My friend’s report on the problem was summarily dismissed and ignored.

If anyone has ballistics from RELIABLE sources, please post them. Chamber pressures would be a help too, although very hard to find out. I could not even find rated MV for either round in a form that allowed comparison, and I have a large amount of Swedish manuals. Don’t bother to post information on velocity unless you know that for both loads shown the rounds were fired in the same weapons - pistol or SMG - doesn’t matter. If one round is fired in one, and the other in another type of weapon, there is difficulty in making a real comparison due to the higher velocity produced by the longer SMG barrel.

Here again we see the evil of anecdotal evidence. That is all I have to offer, and admit that, and also am the first to say that I don’t like that - documentation is always preferred. Unfortunately, not always avialable.

John Moss


#27

[quote=“Defender”][quote=“mausernut”]So John is right in his assumptions, M/41 is M/39B …[/quote]If the M/39B is as hot as John mentioned, does this mean the danish army used their pistols along the years with ammo loaded for smg’s?
Hard to believe and confusing me …[/quote]Not if you know how often the P210 was and is damaged by regular army use. In Sweden, as John mentioned, were the P 210 is a very popular target pistol, cracked frames and slides are commonplace.

Soren

PS: Btw John, it happened to me the other day as well, the disappearing post act, and I think the forum had logged me off when I tried to submit the post, hence the post went nowhere and was lost. Now I make a preview now and then just to be sure. Maybe someone with more knowledge of forum settings could tell us more?
To use the tools above, mark the textpiece you want to change with the left mousebutton to highlight it an press once on the button like this: thisisatest thisisatest thisisatest after marking and pressing buttons, the text will be framed by two [] with fx an u -means underscore- in the first, /u in the second. / is to turn the feature off.

edit: features of the buttons :-)


#28

[quote=“Torben”]The Swedish M/39B has a projectile weight of 107 grain,
AMA has a projectile weight of 116 grain,
FNB has a projectile weight of 124 grain,
All known in Denmark as the 9MM SKPT M/41[/quote]

Ah, thank you. This explains all, and it seems that the way to know what you have is by weighing the complete cartridge and by having the lightest of the 3 versions, which should be M/39B. Also it would have to be pre-1984 I assume to have a chance at being M/39B, and as Lew points out, the ogive can be another determining factor.

Thanks!


#29

DK - its a lot easier than that. If you have a red primer seal (truly red) and neck seal, and the headstamp is 070, it should be an M39/B regardless of what the Danes call it. There are other Swedish headstamps on M39/B rounds, but I have not seen any in relation to Danish-language/symbols packaging.

John M.


#30

Ok, and I assume these are generally all coming in the trapezoidal brown Swedish boxes with Danish markings then. But what about those rectangular boxes of 50rds with the marking stalkappe or “med stalkappe”? Are those cartridges 070 stamped M/39B that has been repackaged?


#31

They also come in boxes with Swedish markings. It has been the standard Swedish issue ammunition for a long time. If not a clone, the Nammo version was certainly developed from the M39/B I would say. I have not seen cutaways of both side by side to see if they changed the thickness of the jacket at the nose. In fact, I have not seen any round I could identify as the Nammo version.

I see no reason at all to believe that the boxes with white labels - the very late-dated Danish boxes - from anything said here, are repacked. Countries change label designs all the time, sometimes for a different market, and sometimes not. The absence of the HMAK on the label would, probably, indicate they were not specifically supplied for the Danish Armed Forces. This leaves the police and civilian market.

I think perhaps we are making a fairly simple subject here into something very complicated.

John Moss


#32

DK, Check my posting on pg 1 of this thread. Their headstamp is (+) AMA 87. The bullet is not the M39/B bullet because it is a different ogive, but I believe it is a similar design, just like the FN bullet you have is a different design than the M39/B but with a similar design of the reinforced jacket in the front of the projectile.

Cheers,

Lew


#33

Lew - I have no time now, but with the purple seal of the AMA 87, I would think it would be the same basic bullet as the older Danish M41. I think weighing one might be the answer, to see if it is lighter due to less lead core, and much more bullet-jacket material at the nose. Was the recent (1970s and 1980s) AMA stuff “reinforced nose?” If cartridge weight indicates a 115 or 124 grain bullet, I would think it is NOT like the M39/B Swedish load. If the bullet is less than 110 grains, than it probably is similar.

Off to the range, where I have RO duty today. Will check back on late this afternoon, when I get back home, and see If I need to check rounds in my own collection for this.

John Moss


#34

Thanks all, I think I finally have my brain wrapped around it. I found the Nammo pdf file of a brochure of some sort by Nammo from years ago. Here is an image montage I made of two pages. It shows their designation of BNT-HP7 and B-HP7. I assume the BNT version is lead-free Non-Toxic and that the two are otherwise the same?
The lower captions on this pic are typed by me:


#35

Matt (and others), here a more recent NAMMO catalog excerpt.
B 7 HP = Ball 7 High Performance
BNT 7 HP = Ball Non Toxic 7 High Performance

There is also a “Ball 7” with 7.5 gram (also in non tox) and a “Ball 8” with 8 gram (no non tox version here!).

For all “non tox” the core material is given as copper.

Here the details on the 7 HP:


#36

The swedish m/39B and the danish M/41 “Med Stålkappe” have different bullets.

m/39B cut (from this page: amkat.se/9x19/9x19.html):

M/41 with steelcap cut:

Of course, the danish bullets weight is of high interest. But I just can deliver it in some days. So we all have to be patient.


#37

Defender - I thought they were differentm and your pictures confirm that. Thanks for posting those cutaway pictures.

John Moss


#38

[quote=“JohnMoss”]Defender - I thought they were differentm and your pictures confirm that. Thanks for posting those cutaway pictures.
John Moss[/quote]
You’re right. The different shape of the bullets indicates that. And this afternoon it was time to examine it


#39

As to the M39B being a “hot” round, I couldn’t find an accurate source for the bullet weight and velocity (3 sources gave 3 different answers. I assume the NAMMO information just given us here is accurate, since it is factory material. The 9 x 19 Ball 7 HP seems to be very close to M39/B, although perhaps not identical. Material I have shows the Ball 7 cut away, and the jacket is very thick at the nose, but the core contours are not precisely the same as the cut away M39?B bullet Defender so kindly provided. Again, though, pretty close. Nammo quotes a 6.75 gram (104.2 grain) bullet at 440 m/s (1443 fps). I call that hot, even considering that the bullet is not the full 115 grain weight of much military ball ammunition.Most ball 9mm Para ammo runds between 1100 fps and 1200 fps. There are loads a little hotter than that, but I am considering the average cartridge meant for a pistol.

The NAMMO Ball NT 7 HP with a 7.1 gram (109.6 grain) bullet is a full 100 fps slower at 410 m/s (1345 FPS), and even 1245 fps with a 110 grain bullet is not a wimp load in 9mm, although I probably would not be afraid to shoot it in my Browning HP on occasion.

John Moss


#40

John, The weight of the loaded Danish steel cap load is given in the post with my original photo of the box as 174gr. I also weighted both a Swedish M39/B and the Danish contract Swedish made cartridges in the original photo of this thread and both were 172gr as I posted in my first entry on this thread. That would make both bullets in the 104gr-106gr range. The bullet ogive on the Danish steel cap load is more blunt then either of the other two bullets.

Lew