Swedish M/39B repacked as Danish M41?


#41

Lew - I meant stated bullet weight, not cartridge weight, although the former serves decently to figure out bullet weight in the event one does not wish to pull a bullet, or cannot, for some reason or another. That would be the case with me with 75% of my collection. I will only pull bullets if I have duplicates to do it to, except in extraordinary circumstances where either I or a close friend really badly needs the information. Even then, there are ones I wont pull.

I did not use that information at the time, because I didn’t have the stated velocities anyway, and as I said, while I trust yours to be always correct, I had three pretty different sets of “data” (probably better called “guesses”) aside from what you wrote for the details of the M39/B. Unfortunately, even the Swedish military manuals were of little help. The varying data was not from this thread, but rather from sources in my library.

John Moss


#42

Maybe this one helps with cartridge weight, velocity, power and bullet weight?
(just for explanation: RAMAD behind the designations means “framed” = on stripper clips)


#43

I assume that this manual has no data for the M39 load, but rather just for the M39/B?

John Moss


#44

The manual is from 1976 and the m/39 is not included.
The m/39B was developed in the early 1950th and came in swedish service 1955. After this it replaced the m/39 successive, I guess.

EDIT: The 1960 edition of this manual shows the m/39 too. But unfortunatly it’s not in my library.


#45

My earliest M39 load, with no seals or purple seals, is from 1942. It is from AmF 24 (also from “M”) and undobtedly exists with a 1941 date also, probably missing from my collection only because I don’t save all dates, since I have a blank and a dummy with AmF 24 headstamped dated from 1941. My latest M39 load is with green seals and is from 1986. These rounds weigh (complete cartridge) just over 180 grains. The M39/Bs, which have an overall cartridge weight of about 170 grains (some a little more, some a little less) run from Karlsborg in 1953 up to 1990 with red seals. I have a round with the CG headstamp from 1906 with red seals (nickeled-cup boxer primer) but it weighs 176 grains, awfully heavy for an M39B, taking on more than half the difference between the older M39Bs and M39 rounds. I don’t know if it is technically an M39B or not. Unfortunately, most of the CG headstamped rounds I have are in contract boxes for other Scandinavian countries, not for the Swedish military, and the boxes do not show the M39 designation in any form (M39, M39/B, etc).

All of our Swedish collectors seem to have disappeared, so my collection, which used to be pretty good, pretty much died in the late 1980s. I still have some, like I said, contracted in Sweden for Norway and Denmark, but nothing from Sweden itself.

I believe the earliest M39 rounds were from Germany. The headstamp B DWM B 480C seems to play heavy into Sweden with the contract of Model HP (P-38) pistols delivered in 1939 to Sweden and given that year-model desgination by the Swedes. I have three variations of Swedish dummy round with that DWM headstamp. There is also a scarce headstamp “2 DWM 40 B” my specimen of which came from Sweden, and I suspect the headstamp was made for them.

There is also the headstamp NORMA 9mm M/39, but I am not sure whether that is pre-WWII or post WWII. I suspect it is the latter.

John Moss


#46

[quote=“Lew”]John, The weight of the loaded Danish steel cap load is given in the post with my original photo of the box as 174gr. I also weighted both a Swedish M39/B and the Danish contract Swedish made cartridges in the original photo of this thread and both were 172gr as I posted in my first entry on this thread. That would make both bullets in the 104gr-106gr range. The bullet ogive on the Danish steel cap load is more blunt then either of the other two bullets.
Lew[/quote]

According to Lew’s statement I can give these weights now:
Cartridge: 174,87 gr (11,33 g)
Steel cap bullet: 104,80 gr. (6,78 g)


#47

Can anyone confirm when the Swedish military adopted the M39/B load. My early examples are, by headstamp code

Code 26—1958
Code 27—1960
Code 35—1962
Code K (later 070):

  • One load in a 1953 case, but the box label is plain white and typed. It is dated June 1957 and I was told it was an experimental load.
    -My other loads with this headstamp are dated 59 and later.

Based on this info it appears that the M39/B load was tested in 1957 and introduced in 1958 or so but it would sure be nice to have some documentation.

Cheers,

Lew


#48

Lew, I suspect your dates are right on. I have the K53 M39B as well, although I don’t think I realized it wasn’t loaded until 1957. One chap on this thread gives the starting date for M39B as 1955, but that may be the K53 load he is talking about, even if he doesn’t realize it is that one. I will check my manuals later. I have some other stuff to look up too, but not sure I will get it done tonight.

Edited to correct a loading date of K53 headstamped M39/B.

John M.


#49

Lew - I have checked the internet, including a site specifically on Swedish ammunition. I found the introduction date of M39/B listed as 1955 on several different sources. Since I don’t collect dates, no sense me trying to look up what my M39B date is for each arsenal. I never made any special effort to get especially early dates, or for that matter, later dates either. What ever I got first is still there unless I upgraded it in some way over the years. I think it is safe to day that the K53 headstamp in 39/B is the earliest though, even though evidently loaded in 1957. I will check a little more tonight.

Edited to crrect the loading date of K53 9 mm M39/B.

John Moss


#50

John,
The K53 headstamped load actually came from a box marked as shown below. Note that it is dated 1957.

Perhaps someone can tell us if there is anything else significant on the label, or even translate it for us.

Cheers,

Lew


#51

Lew, the projectiles in this box were made in 1956.


#52

Krut: = powder (not sure what or where Åkb is)
Lng: = Laddning = Load (in grams)
Prj: = Projectile
Arbnr: “Work number” = Lot number
Beställn. nr = order number
I think Kbg means Karlsborg
The drawing of the headstamp shows the sign for M/39B ammo: double lines.
Soren


#53

As John Moss indicated, there is a website that indicates the M/39B was introduced in 1955. I suspect that the development may have started then. EOD points out that the bullets were made in 1956 and the box was loaded in 1957 (perhaps 4 Jun 57). I also have a 36 round square box from 070 (Karlsborg Arsenal) dated 1958 and the printed label indicates the load is M/39B but the “B” has been overstamped with a black square. This perhaps indicates an intent to produce this ammunition in 1958, but the box was instead used for the earlier M/39 load. The earliest Karlsborg headstamp I have on M/39B is 1959 which could indicate no loads in 1958. I have an M/39B load by Svenska Metallverken AB (code 026) dated 1958 on the headstamp but this could have been a 1958 case used in 1959 production. It seems unlikely that Svenska Metallverken AB would have produced the M/39B ammunition before the developer (Karlsborg) produced it.

Perhaps someone has an Karlsborg headstamped M/39B load dated 1958, or even better an 070 coded box with a 1958 loading date. This would close up the gap a bit between test and production.

Still hope someone has documentation on the introduction of this cartridge.

Cheers,

Lew


#54

[quote=“Defender”]The manual is from 1976 and the m/39 is not included.
The m/39B was developed in the early 1950th and came in swedish service 1955. After this it replaced the m/39 successive, I guess.

EDIT: The 1960 edition of this manual shows the m/39 too. But unfortunatly it’s not in my library.[/quote]

That’s the table from the 1960 manual. It shows the data of both: m/39 and m/39B.

Note the identical gas pressures given there!


#55

Ive seen these identical pressures mentioned before, but the cracked Lahti pistols are not a myth. I was
researching something for Lew Curtis and came across some sort of gun Forum, I guess from Scandinavia,
and they were even discussing the cracked receiver issue with M39/B ammo there. I wish I had some junk
9mm Pistol - I would shoot the few dupes I have of M39/B and M/39 and see what they felt like and sounded
like. Not scientific, of course, but certainly some indication if one is much hotter than the other in reality.

If they are the same pressure, the lighter bullet of the M39/B should produce less recoil I would think, despite
its higher velocity. Well, probably an endless argument, so this will be my last comment on this subject, unless
I get an answer to a message I sent to Sweden about historical aspects of the round, much more to my interest
than its technical properties, anyway.

John Moss


#56

The cartridge is taken from the displayed contents of which are original Swedish Pack with Danish text
Home Bought by HMAK but the cartridge is obviously Swedish M/39B as in Denmark, known as 9mm SKPT M/41
image

image


#57

Torben,

Thanks for the comfirmation. I was pretty sure that was the case. The box you show is identical to the one I have.

John Moss