Swiss 7.65x21, a couple of dumb questions please

Hi to all,
I have a couple of ‘dumb’ questions about the Swiss 7.65x21 cartridge.
Firstly why is it designated ‘Pistole Patrone 03’ when the Swiss millitary adopted the Luger in 1901?
Second question, what was the difference with the 7.65x21 the Swiss used in the Bergmann MP and the ‘normal’ 7.65x21 03 ammunition?

Atb
Tony

The Swiss government (Bundesrat) adopted the Parabellum as Pistole 1900 on May 4 1900.

The ammunition factory in Thun (M+FT) began with the early production of the 7.65mm Para in the late 1890s. Mass production began in 1900, and the cartridge was continuously optimized during the following period. It was not until 1903 that this process was completed and therefore it was not until August 7 1903 that the government decided to officially adopt the cartridge in its then current form as Pistolenpatrone 03.

Bergmann cartridge: In the spring of 1934, the Zürich police complained that the Pistolenpatrone 03 caused malfunctions when shooting with submachine guns. Therefore, M+FT adapted the Pistolenpatrone 03 so that it functioned better in submachine guns. The “Hülsenschaft” (case base to shoulder) was shortened by 0.1mm. These cartridges have the letters BG on the HS (at position 12 o’clock). These cartridges were produced from 1935 to 1938.

Since these cartridges also worked without problems in the Parabellum pistols, it was decided in 1939 to adapt the Pistolenpatrone 03 to the Bergmann submachine gun cartridge. The boxes for the Bergmann submachine gun cartridges contained since then correspondingly adapted Pistolenpatronen 03 (without BG on the HS).

Alexander

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Thank you very much Alexander,
I do have a 1903 dated Pistolenpatrone and a 1935 dated (3.35 at position 6 o’clock) Bergmann cartridge in the Swiss section of my collection, which led me to my questions.
Do the pre 03 rounds ever turn up for collectors?
Again, thank you for your information, information on Swiss ammunition is hard to find in ‘my neck of the woods’

Atb
Tony

That explains this headstamp now very clearly, thank you!
I have a 7,65 of november 1902, T 11 T 02, my oldest one. There’s at least no visible difference with standard O3 cartridges of 1914 and 1921.

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Relatively low dates in Swiss 7.65 Para (M03), in years past, have not been impossible to find. I don’t have any as early as Duqjans’ T 11 T 02, but I do have the following in my own collection. I don’t collect this caliber by dates, not even years, but do for all other differences, no matter how minor.

Ball M03:

B 7 T 14
D 4 T 29
K 3 T 04 (My earliest headstamped Swiss round)
T 8 T 09
W 8 T 07
M 10 T 42 (Probably shouldn’t have included this one, since it is atypical, having and aluminum case)

Cattle Killer (pointed lead bullets - reloads found with about any Swiss older headstamps"

T 3 T 07
W 7 T 07

Blank - extended neck with rosebud crimp:

T 12 T 08

Dummy - smooth case cannelure painted black, Snapped primer:

T 4 T 06

I also have a ball round, Swiss early characteristics, with no headstamp. I got this from, as I recall, Werner Schaltenbrand, of Switzerland, with the remark that it was a “very early” Swiss 7.65 mm Para round. I have never found any other information on it, so can only go by what he said. Don’t know if it is right or wrong. Werner (R.I.P.) was a knowledgeable collector and student of Swiss ammunition, so I am inclined to believe it is a pre-1903 cartridge.

John Moss.

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I found in my files a box label.
Unfortunately I don’t know anymore where I picked it up

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This is one of my favorite Swiss 7.65x21, Leuchtspurpatrone 75, sub calibre tracer (Elenonora sub cal) for use in the 83mm RL- Blindicide.
I also believe that Germany also had their version of this sub cal

Tony


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German Blindicide (used with our border guards back then) used the original MECAR supplied 20mm system.

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As John has already mentioned, early 7.65mm Para of the M+F do not have a HS. The earliest HS I know is from July 1902 (7 at 2 o’clock, 02 at 6 o’clock). By the way, this cartridge has a truncated cone bullet - Thun cartridges without HS with truncated cone bullets are also known (see picture). I suspect the M+F used German bullets here.

7,65mm Para made by M+F before August 1903 are strictly speaking not Pistolenpatronen 03, because the Swiss government adopted the cartridge only on August 7, 1903. The earliest Pistolenpatrone 03 known to me is from October 1903 (10 at 2 o’clock, 03 at 6 o’clock).

Alexander


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Cartridges before 1916 are not crimped

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And a “normal” box, I presume? Too bad, it was sold to me as Bergmann ammunition. Wonder what the headstamp might be…M 1 T 36?

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Both the boxes shown - Dutch and Duqjans - are beautiful. The rounds in Duqjan’s box, unless they are with aluminum cases, would not have an “M” headstamp. That entry on the headstamp is the case-metal supplier. All the “M T” rounds have aluminum cases, with the case-metal supplied by Menziken.

John Moss

I suppose late 1935

Stucki or John,
What would the cartridges look like in this box?
gyrojet 7.65 box
gyrojet posted it awhile back.
Thanks, Dan

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Here is a cartridge from a package with the same date.

IMG_0005 x

IMG_0006 x

Betmawa89

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Thankyou!
Dan

The difference lies in the bullet. From 1916 a groove was made into which the case mouth was pressed.

betmawa89

Two further packages for the Bergmann submachine gun, both with Avional cases.

image

image

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7.65 mm Pist Pat 03, My oldest package.

image

betmawa89

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betmawa89 - great box labels for the 40-round packages. I understand fully that the Avional-Hülse is the aluminum case, but what on the upper package for the Bergmann identifies it as having aluminum cases? Of course, if a full or partial box, the contents speak for themselves, and I realize that, of course. I just wondered, as I weighed a number of my Swiss 7.65 (and 9 mm too, while I was at it), and the silver-white Bergmann with grey case weighed 162.5 grains, while a normal brass-case ball round (Swiss) weighed essentially the same (163.7 grains). The other three aluminum-case rounds I have, a blue case M T headstamp, and silver-grey cases D T and T T all fell between 121.2 and 122.1. A difference of around 40 grains makes no sense in a pistol round to be simply the the difference between a ball loading and a proof loading, but would make sense if the silver BG round is actually a coated brass case.

I found the same roughly 40 grain difference between the 9 mm Aluminum cases (152.3 - 154.0 total ctg wgt and the copper-washed proof loads and brass-case ball loads of 9 mm Parabellum, runing from 189.9 grains to 194.1 grains).

Interesting stuff. I never really paid attention to the Swiss cartridge weights before this thread. The “odd man out” is, by far, the silver-grey Bergmann round, which I always considered to be an aluminum case, but its weight being essentially the same as the brass case 7.65 round seems to indicate it is NOT aluminum.

John Moss