Swiss "9M/M Long"


#1

The box pictured below apparently came out of SIG and is dated 16 Jan 1983. The round is loaded with a non-magnetic HP bullet. The case length measures 9.23mm and the label indicates 9.25mm or perhaps 0.25mm. Overall weight is 160.5gr. On the side of the box is written “6 Stuck”.

Does anyone know what this actually is??? There is no headstamp and a green painted primer. There are four long crimps holding the bullet and a distinct bulge below the casemouththat can be seen in the image.

A normal 9x19mm is shown for comparison.

Cheers,
Lew


#2

Lew - Later than the unheadstamped round you picture Thun did
make the 9 x 23 mm Pistol (according to factory sources, basically
the 9 x 23 Winchester version), headstamped, as I recall, T 9x23

Only NUPE cases of Boxer primer type were made, and there were no
boxes. They were simply in some sort of plastic bag. I don’t recall the
quantity at the time. I got a few of these out of Switzerland, where a
friend at the Treyvaux gun club found them - all fired cases. At the
time, there was speculation that they were from Toledo, Spain, and simply
9 mm Largo cases. The headstamping told me they were made at Thun, and
while initial inquiries brought back the answer “never made such a thing,” I
finally, at the suggestion of a known bay area .223 collector and dear friend,
contacted a Lady and she knew all about them. They were made for ISPC
shooters.

They are not the cartridge you show, but came later, and I wonder if these were a
part of the evolution of making the ones I had - perhaps pre-production rounds.

It is interesting that the typed label is in English. Wish this had showed up before the
9 x 23 book. I had far more contacts at that time, including good ones at SIG. I have
none there now. Wonder what the max diameter of the bullet is. Sometimes the case
bulge is because the bullet is a little large for the case mouth.

It may have nothing to do with the 9 x 23 I describe, of course, since it is loaded to a shorter
OACL than even the 9 x 19 mm, and might not function well thru a magazine designed for the
9 x 23 case.

John Moss


#3

The case mouth crimps are position where (same distance from the base) they would be often found on normal Swiss 9mm production and certainly appear to be typical Swiss crimps.

Sorry just a minor point, no idea what it exactly is.


#4

I think, that this is 9 x 21 IMI round.


#5

THV - Lew indicated in the opening of the thread that the case length
was 23 mm. Why do you think it is a 9 x 21 mm round?

John M.


#6

Sorry, the case is just about 9 and a quarter mm. Not 9x21 or 9x23.

I don’t believe it has anything to do with either caliber. I suspect that instead it was perhaps some kind of test to see how a slightly oversize 9x19mm case would operate in some sort of weapon or weapons? The added case length of 0.25mm is so slight it can have almost no effect on performance. The more I look at the markings on the box, i think the pencil mark on the right side is “0.25mm” indicating how oversize the case length is.

The bulge in the case is still strange. Perhaps these were either a 9x21 ro 9x23 case trimmed down for this work and the bulge is a result.

Cheers,
Lew


#7

The 0.25 marking could well indicated the amount of added length,
since it squares with your current measurement. I would have to wonder
why it is loaded with what appears to be a non-Swiss hollow-point bullet,
though. Also, the typical Swiss horizontal bullet crimps in the normal
position of a 19 mm case, to me, kind of rule it out as being a cut-off
9 x 21 mm Swiss case. I would think this is just a factory “boo-boo” in
the case trimming process, if it were not for the lack of a headstamp,
and what is, perhaps, a non-standard projectile (for Switzerland).

Of course, on the other hand, the bullet-bulge in the upper portion of
the cartridge-case makes an argument FOR a cut-off case, although
you sometimes find these bulges in hand-loads, even on new cases, when
there is a slight mis-match in components due to different manufacturers
for the case and bullets. The 9 x 19 mm is a good example. To get a
proper mate-up in handloading this cartridge, and being able to get a
tight bullet fit without way over-crimping, I had to get a second, slightly
tighter case-sizing die from RCBS, which was not custom made due,
evidently, to a fair demand for the item. If I used some brands of projectiles
with some brands of cases, I got excessive bullet case-bulging, and with
other mismatches, too loose a bullet. This was with new brass of various
makes, by the way, not fired cases, although the results were the same
with them.

Lew, do you have a 9 mm Swiss-made round, normal dimensions, loaded with
this bullet?

Regardless, a very interesting round. Wish I still had my contact at SIG (Neuhausen
Rhine Falls factory). If some sort of test round involving chambering, they would
likely know about it. The trick is always finding someone who does know, and will
not ignore the question.

John M.


#8

Could it be some experimental as we have the Swiss 9 mm Versuchsmunition with a shortened case (18,75mm). I was told it was specifically made for the Sig-Sauer service pistol (Pistole 75) of the Swiss army.



On the left a “normal” PP41, on the right the shortened Versuch.


#9

I’m sorry but at hand of your picture and my measurement of my two shown cartridges, I can hardly believe your case is “only” 19,25 mm long.


#10

John,
No, I have never seen this bullet in any Swiss load.

I have confirmed that this box came out of SIG a few years ago.

Duqjans,
You embarrass me! I have had the Swiss 9mm KH load for many years, but had forgotten about it. The KH load was from late 1981 and the “Long” was from Jan 1983. Your photo shows how the CM was cut back almost to the crimp on the KH load and on the “Long” it is well above the crimp. I looked up the KH round in my database and have the following note:

_

“Made for the Zurich Police for the SIG 220 pistols which did not properly chamber the normal round. Shortly after these rounds were made, the police got the SIG P230s.”

_

It looks like the 9M/M longs were probably part of whatever SIG was working at this time. It also appears from the crimp on this load like the original Swiss bullets with a cannealure was pulled since they lack the depth of a normal Swiss cmc and these hollow point bullets loaded in the case. Or perhaps the lack of a cannealure on these HP bullets caused the shallow crimp.

Well Done!!!

Cheers,
Lew