Swiss blank cartridges 7,65mm Para

I am looking for information concerning Swiss blank cartridges 7,65mm Para/.30 Luger.

The Swiss Army introduced a blank cartridge 7,65mm Para for their Luger pistols in 1908 with the designation Blinde Pistolen Patrone 08 (Bl Pist Pat 08). The youngest Bl Pist Pat 08 I know is from 1911.

Question No. 1: Does anybody knows from Bl Pist Pat 08 which were produced after 1911?

There is another type of blank cartridge 7,65mm Para produced by M+F (Eidgenössische Munitionsfabrik / federal ammunition factory) in Thun with a black wooden bullet. Until now I have only observed this example here from 1912.

Question No. 2: Does anybody knows from other Swiss blank cartridges of this type, if yes, when were they produced?

A collaborator of the M+F has produced - possibly in the 1960’s - a booklet with hand-colored drawings of ammunition boxes and labels from the M+F (the intended us is unknown). In this booklet you can see labels of boxes with blank cartridges 7,65mm Para (blinde Pistolenpatronen) from the 1940’s and 1950’s. I always thought that the M+F stopped the production of blank cartridges 7,65mm Para after a few years (before 1920).

Question No. 3: does anybody knows more about these cartridge boxes and about Swiss blank cartridges 7,65mm Para produced in the 1940’ and 1950’s?

Alexander




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I have the crimped blank on the left in your photo with the following dates:
9 11
4 08
12 08
None are later than the one you illustrate.

I also have a blank with no bullet but a black wad crimped into the case mouth dated 12 11 which you do not illustrate. When I get time I will post an image.

All of these have the T T headstamp from Thun.

Cheers,
Lew

Thanks Lew!

I would be very interested to see a picture of this blank cartridge

Alexander

here are the images.

West 7 & TT blk tip
image
image

Hope this helps!

Back in the early 1970s, I bought the Luger cartridges from a dealer named Brickell (as I remember). In there was an aluminum 7.65mm Para extended case blank. it was unloaded and had some crimps at the casemouth, but the crimped area area was only about half the length of the brass case you show. so the mouth was open. It had an MT headstamp. I gave it to Bill Woodin shortly after I found it. I believe it is totally legit since Brickell had some great contact at Thun and had some 9x19mm rounds that have never been seen by anybody I know in Switzerland, including a 9mm load with a heavy bullet with a conical tail extending from the base of the bullet. Sorry, no photo.

Cheers,
Lew

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The site is now dead but there is loads of info if you dig through the archive: Wayback Machine

Not wery friendly for simple browsing but if you change browsing date then other things might pop up.

Thank you Lew - very nice cartridge and interesting information!

The aluminium cartridge must have been produced in the first half of the 1940‘s I suppose…

@ Lew: Would it be ok for you if I would use the pictures of your blank cartridge for a publication - if yes, how should I credit them (origin, source)?

Alexander

Hi everyone, I have a note about this cartridge.
There is an identical copy in my collection, also chipped.
Wouldn’t it be possible for it to be a dummy and not a blank cartridge?

Cheers
betmawa

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I don’t think this is a dummy cartridge. The wooden bullet is much too little robust for this purpose.

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Has anyone confirmed that the black wood bullet is, indeed, a factory load, and if so, what is the source of the confirmation? I am not disputing the ID pro or con, simply would like to know the documentation, including the loading, since the bullet is intact but the primer is snapped. Of course, that could mean a dud cartridge (if powder is still present in the case), or one inerted for a collection. Mention has been made of other specimens of this round. Do they all have snapped primers?

John Moss

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Rather than a blank, or a ‘dummy’ cartridge, perhaps it is simply a limited distance training round?

@JohnMoss: possible, that this is not a factory load:

  1. It’s known that Swiss gun stores sold reloaded Pist Pat 03 (Swiss 7,65mm Para, produced by M+F) commercially.
  2. There is quite a lot of information in archives and copies in the hands of collectors about the Bl Pist Pat 08 (blank pistol cartridge 08, see above), but absolutely nothing about other blanks in this caliber produced by M+F.

Alexander

@BadgerJack: I don‘t see any evidence, that the Swiss Army (or the police) was interested in this kind of tarining 100 years ago.

Alexander

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@betmawa89: can you report the headstamp of the cartridge in your collection and has this cartridge also a snapped primer?
Alexander

Here are the cartridges from my collection:

IMG_0001

Cheers
betmawa

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Thank’s betmawa89 - Interesting that your cartridge also has a snapped primer… nevertheless I think that this is rather a blank cartridge.

The perforated Bl Pat 08 raise questions - I suspect they are inert cartridges for training purposes – but it’s only a guess

The perforated cartridge 12-11 (I have also one - see attachment) differs from the others in two areas:

  • differently shaped tip
  • and also the primer seems to be a little bit different (“dummy” primer?)

I have no idea why…

Alexander

DSCN0007
DSCN0003

The wood bullet in Bemawa’s picture appears to have a pretty irregular ogive, and different in shape from the first wood-bullet blank pictured on this thread. They do not look like something made at a precision factory like Thun. More like home-made wood bullets.

Just an impression looking at the photos. Since I had never even heard of any such Swiss blank, after 55 years of collecting auto pistol, I am not qualified to judge either who made them, if they are blanks or dummies, or if they are just from someone with a bunch of fired Swiss 7.65 Para cases and time on his hands.

Again, just an impression. It would need to be, I think, a Swiss collector to find the answer as to whether or not these are any kind of legitimate item.The two different headstamp dates on cartridges pretty much unknown until this thread alos points to non-factory loads, as does the condition of the second one shown.

John Moss

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Empty model package

From two sample books

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@JohnMoss: more and more I also think it is a homemade cartridge. This would also make the theory of a dummy cartridge more plausible. If it is not really a professional work, also my argument, concerning the missing robustness would be relativized.

Someone would have to delaborate the cartridge :slightly_smiling_face: - unfortunately, I am not the owner of the cartridge I have shown, but I will ask the owner…

Addition: I just spoke with the owner on the phone - he does not want the cartridge to be delaborated