Does anybody know what the frequency of the original minishells from Techno arms is, in so far as what shows up at cartridge shows for these? I have heard that they are 12ga in a proprietary length of 60mm (2&1/3rd inches). I recently picked up a Mag-7 shotgun however, and when I tried to fit some 2.5" low-pressure shells into the magazine to give them a try, they fit diameter-wise, but not length-wise, or they barely fit but were too tight! My digital calipers had the shell length at 56mm, so they should have worked I guess? So apparently the Aguilla minishells at 1&3/4" are my only recourse unless I can get some original Techno-Arms shells which I assume are rare as ever. Luckilly Aguila has the multi-buck load minishells as of this past year in addition to the original birdshot and slug minishells which they always had. But the multi-buck shells seem to be drying up from the suppliers who carry them now too… Anybody know much on this realm of shell-length quandary for the Mag-7?
DK - I don’t know a thing about this particular firearm or shotgun shell length. I do have to wonder why any company would tamper with the interchangeability of at least 2-3/4" shells in this day and age though. My reason for answering is to say to please remember that the unfired length is not what is critical as to whether they are a “fit” for a specific shotgun chamber though - it is the FIRED length that is critical, so that any crimp doesn’t open up and extend into the throat of the barrel, constricting the load from properly leaving the cartridge and the barrel of the firearm.
Good point about the fired length on the shells for firing (and maybe ejection purposes too?). I believe the choice on length for these shells was due to the fact that the magazine is a clip-feed, and it is positioned in the grip in an Uzi style:
My hands are pretty big at an XL glove size, and I had all I could do to get a full & comfortable grasp around this gun’s grip (about 2.25" width and 1" depth).
It’s looks like the Aguila minishells will be my lot for use with this gun. Centerfiresystems currently has the best price I can find for the multi-buck load, an interesting load in its own right having 7 #4 pellets and 4 #1 pellets for 11 pellets total. I would still love to get one (or several) of the original Techno Arms shells just to measure them and see what the deal is, and why all the websites refer to them as 60mm, which can’t be right based on what I have tried so far. I’m guessing more and more that it should be listed as 50mm (1.96") which probably would fit nicely in the magazine. I think the Russian arms site (world.guns.ru) with all the info on guns, lost something in the translation when they listed the shells as 60mm, and other sites like Wikipedia just copied this info.
Interesting design, DK; how are these treated under US law? Are they considered AOWs, SBSs, ordinary handguns, or what exactly?
Just went a googling on this gun. One of the sites lists the CHAMBER as 60MM and the round as a 12ga. X 50mm. And as they defined it , 2 3/8’’.
securityarms.com/20010315/galler … 0/2302.htm
The Aguila rounds I have are roll crimped slugs. Not sure what the buckshot loads have topwad wise.
A comment on one of the '‘finds’'
However, with its many innovative concepts it remains a curiosity among connoisseurs.
made me LOL.
Used to you probably couldn’t spell connoisseur and now you are one.
Yeah I believe that a few sites have all listed the shells as being 60mm, when it’s actually the chamber that is 60mm and the shells at 50mm, that makes more sense. Amazing how the internet can be wrong eh? Especially “official” sites like Wikipedia. As far as what the government treats the actual gun like, they treat it as a shotgun, because the civilian model (Mag-7M1)
of which something like 1000 of were imported into the U.S. actually had a goofy looking buttstock, and a 20" barrel. I’m guessing that something around 50% of anybody who buys one of these things illegally modifies them by removing the stock and sawing the barrel down to just beyond the muzzle nut. Because honestly, the whole point of the weapon is lost with the civilian options on it, and it becomes more of a detriment than anything else. It would explain why this gun keeps becoming more and more rare as far as the Mag-7M1 models because so many people illegally modify them, and then they are not a registered SBS, and cannot be resold.
Wikipedia is hardly authoritative or official. Anyone with internet access can edit it. Gun related articles are routinely vandalized. And then you have erroneous edits by folks who have no idea about what they are writing beyond what they learned from a movie, novel, comic book, or videogame.
A pox on you fellows for dissing Wickepedia. I saw GI’s in Band of brothers throwing mortar shells at German soldiers. We used to do that all the time. Better than hand grenades :-)
What will one of those silly looking things do that a Remington Model 870 won’t do better and more reliably? Just wondered?
I don’t collect shot shells but I do have some of these as they are odd. The weapon itself is a very short assault type weapon designed to be used in small or confired spaces. The gun was designed with security comparies in mind, climbing in & out of a vechicle, shorter & smaller is better. It used to have a folding stock on the shot gun that folded down on the top of the weapon. It is considerably shorter that a Remington an has the benefit of being able to be fed with magazines that hold 5 cartridges each. There is even a gadget to attach two magazines to each other (bottom to bottom).
The ammo is about 50mm in length. The five cartridges shown here are from left: drill cartridge, batton cartridge (2 white hard rubber balls), another batton cartridge with lower brass wall adn blue rubber balls, a slug cartridge called a “penetrator” and a AAA load. SSG was also definitly made but I am not sure about other loadings. The power of these short cartridges is the same as standard 60mm cartridges, the shortness achieved but shortening the wad in the case - load and propelling charge remains the same.
I was going to post a picture with this but it appears that Photobucket is out of action this morning…
Shotgun cartridge length is always given in the unloaded/fired state and is therefore always greater than the length of the loaded round. Its a throwback to the blackpowder days.
So I acquired some Aguila minishells finally, and I also have tried some vintage low-pressure 2.5" shells, and neither work in the Techno Arms Mag-7! This is a major let-down. All these websites talk of the Aguila minishells functioning in the Mag-7, and it turn out to be totally false. The follower pushes the minishell vertical every time it tries to chamber when I pump the action, no matter how slow or fast I try it, and I’ve tried two magazines. I’m sure the 2" shells would work if they were just 1cm shorter, they barely miss fitting. I realize now that the chamber measurement is what they are referring to, but I still don’t like the whole labeling system used for these shotshell lengths. The so-called vintage 2.5" shells are actually 2.12" and the Aguila minishells which are supposedly 1.75" are actually 1.36". Now I am stuck with 200rds of minishell buckshot and 40rds of minishell slugs which I don’t know what the hell to do with since they wont work properly in a Remington 870, which is the only other 12ga I have. I believe my only recourse is to buy all the equipment to do my own shotshell loading with a press and somehow rig the press height and trim down some hulls to 1.80" which I believe is the ideal length for the Mag-7. Not to mention I’ll have to figure some custom load data with odd ammounts of buckshot and powder charge for the unique spacing. Sigghhhhh… Has anybody ever done short-length custom shotshell reloading?
- you have a gun with a chamber of 60mm using loaded shells of 50mm length
It is obvious if you use loaded shells longer than 50mm it will be too tight in the magazine and if you use loaded shells a lot shorter than 50 mm it will jam because the rounds will come vertical when you use the action.
It is what happened with your loaded “2.5"” (measuring 2.12"=54 mm)shells and your loaded “1.75”(measuring 1.36"=35.4 mm) minimags
- Furthermore you cannot use 2 1/2" shells because you need, to be safe, to have a minimum 2 1/2" chamber and you have only a 2 3/8(=60mm)chamber
Therefore there is no need to try to fit 2 1/2 shells in your gun, it will be unsafe to shoot.
An aggravating point is the fact what you call 2 1/2" shells are not 2 1/2" (63.5 mm) but 2 9/16" (65 mm)
Shooting 2 9/16 ctges in 2 3/8 chamber is unsafer than shooting 2 1/2 ctges
you say :
I believe my only recourse is to trim down some hulls to 1.80" (45.7)
I do not understand you!
What you have to do is to trim down 21/2 (65mm) cases to 2 3/8 (60 mm) and to crimp the loaded ctges to an 2" (50 mm) length
Getting back to the point that everywhere on the internet describes that this gun takes “60mm” shells was my initial problem. The gun I received came with no manual, so I didn’t know what to try. I know now that this 60mm refers to the chamber, but so far, the only cartridges I have been able to find are 2.50" or 1.75". So now I will try some 2.00" low-pressure vintage shells from Gamebore and/or Polywad. The problem with those is that they only come in #6 or #7.5 birdshot, and they are pretty weak. So I will probably attempt loading some 2.75" shells to a modified length of 2.00" with appropriate powder, wad, and shot levels; probably buckshot. It’s just frustrating how everywhere on the internet that talks of the Techno Arms Mag-7 mentions that Aguila minishells will work, when in reality they are completely unusable in the gun. A classic example of an internet domino-effect of bad information. I wonder how many other people have bought this curious gun thinking it might be fun, only to find out that virtually nothing can be fired in it. Anyway, I’ll be buying $200.00 of loading gear to make the new 2.00" shells, at least that will give me a chance to fiddle with some specialty loads. I could corner the market on 2.00" Hand-loaded “Dragon’s breath” for the Mag-7!!! :-)
why don’t you sell your mini shotshells and ask to a reloader to manufacture you 60 mm shells from new NPE 65 mm cases ?
It will be less work than to open your 2 1/2 ctges, unload them, trim them and load them again so on.
Indeed because of the star (or roll) crimp, it will be less easy than to work with new cases (or once shot cases).
you have another option.
Make trials with a dummy ctge (you cut more and more) to determine what is the minimum ctge length your gun is operating.
Once you know that (50 to 60 mm for example) try to find on the market a manufacture making loaded 2 1/2 shells in this dimensions range.
And bring your gun to a gun smith, asking him to rechamber your gun with a 2 1/2 chamber length
- The third option is to modify the magazine for minimag, but I don’t know if it is possible (like we do to convert PPSH 41 and Tokarev from 7.62 to 9 par, or to convert SMG from 9 Bergman to 9 para)
I’ve finally found a commercially available answer to my Mag-7 short 12ga ammo problem. It looks like this company called Paraklese Technologies: http://www.paraklesetechnologies.com makes a 2.00" full-power buck shell which will probably be just right for the mag-fed “Mag-7”. Has anybody heard of this manufacturer? They seem new.
Their shell is the orange one in this picture, in between the aguila minishell, and a typical 2.75 shell:
Update: I received an email from the engineer at Paraklese and he says they actually specifically produce a custom load for the Mag-7 called the SA battle-7 which has an OAL of 49.5mm. So there you go, Paraklese does various custom shell lengths and load powers, as well as a bunch of non-lethals and breaching rds.