THE KING OF NORDENFELTS---1 inch Gatlings and Nordenfelts


#1

The one inch NORDENFELT is not a RARE cartridge in the USA. The one inch Gatling is more rare.

These two are RARE.

The NORDENFELT AP with headstamp from UMC is the only one known.

The GATLING with WINCHESTER headstamp is one of 3 known.

The skirts on the NORDENFELT APs can vary as much as 3/8"

Bill talked me out of the AP ($$$) but I still have the GATLING.


#2

I assume that other collectors know what I am talking about and too often that is not so. Here is some additional information about the one inch Nordenfelt.

In Logan’s 1959 book “CARTRIDGES” the coiled one inch is called “NORDENFELT” and he states that the US Navy used it for some short time. Everafter it was called the one inch NORDENFELT. When Rob Buttweiler went to France and visited SFM he said that he saw proof that this coiled cartridge is a GATLING and not a NORDENFELT. This documentation has not surfaced to my knowledge.

Here are some photos. These are predigital.

3 typical NORDENFELT ball rounds of various length projectiles , 2 APs with different jacket lengths , a typical projectile showing the classic heavy crimping groove and a one inch GATLING.

Typical one inch NORDENFELT ball , typical one inch GATLING , One inch coiled NORDENFELD - GATLING ?

Typical one inch NORDENFELT ball next to one inch experimentals from the estate of DAVIS the inventor of the recoilless gun. Most of his early work was done in one inch. The unusual surface is due to being in a house fire. These came from his family in Florida and were involved.

Documentation is still needed to settle the question. Is the one inch coiled a GATLING or a NORDENFELT?


#3

Dr. Schmitt,

Just goes to show, “rare” is a relative term! For some things, that description doesn’t work. Thank you for showing those items.

This was stuck under a stairwell at the Army Ordnance Museum at APG.

This is a naval mount for what I think is a 1" gun (?).

Dave


#4

Neat.


#5

[quote=“DrSchmittCSAEOD”]
In Logan’s 1959 book “CARTRIDGES” the coiled one inch is called “NORDENFELT” and he states that the US Navy used it for some short time. Everafter it was called the one inch NORDENFELT. When Rob Buttweiler went to France and visited SFM he said that he saw proof that this coiled cartridge is a GATLING and not a NORDENFELT. This documentation has not surfaced to my knowledge.

Documentation is still needed to settle the question. Is the one inch coiled a GATLING or a NORDENFELT?[/quote]

The coiled ctge is a Gatling.

The fact Buttweiler said something is of no importance because the SFM drawings (about gatling or nordenfeld) start in 1895-1900, therefore too recent to really know how where the ctges before.

I showed you the drawings a lot older (beginning of 1880’s) of the two ctges in two recent posts.

JP


#6

[quote=“jeanpierre”][quote=“DrSchmittCSAEOD”]
In Logan’s 1959 book “CARTRIDGES” the coiled one inch is called “NORDENFELT” and he states that the US Navy used it for some short time. Everafter it was called the one inch NORDENFELT. When Rob Buttweiler went to France and visited SFM he said that he saw proof that this coiled cartridge is a GATLING and not a NORDENFELT. This documentation has not surfaced to my knowledge.

Documentation is still needed to settle the question. Is the one inch coiled a GATLING or a NORDENFELT?[/quote]

The coiled ctge is a Gatling.

The fact Buttweiler said something is of no importance because the SFM drawings (about gatling or nordenfeld) start in 1895-1900, therefore too recent to really know how where the ctges before.

I showed you the drawings a lot older (beginning of 1880’s) of the two ctges in two recent posts.

JP[/quote]

Your most recent image is of a one inch NORDENFELT AP in drawn brass case. I don’t recall the other.

What I want to see is a drawing of a one inch COILED NORDENFELT or GATLING with identification.

Everything else is speculation.


#7

[quote="Your most recent image is of a one inch NORDENFELT AP in drawn brass case. I don’t recall the other.

What I want to see is a drawing of a one inch COILED NORDENFELT or GATLING with identification.

Everything else is speculation.[/quote]

here it is
and it is dated 1871


#8

Thank you. This illustration does not say GATLING nor NORDENFELT on it. Further, it is not the typical one inch NORDENFELT as we know it. It does not have the same bullet nor the characteristic paper wrap between the head and tube. The primer is also distinctive but I do not have a photo handy.

Buttweiler said that this particular EXACT cartridge type was made by SFM and that documents exist to prove it.

You may be in the best postion to find that document.


#9

[quote=“DaveE”]Dr. Schmitt,

Just goes to show, “rare” is a relative term! For some things, that description doesn’t work. Thank you for showing those items.

This was stuck under a stairwell at the Army Ordnance Museum at APG.

This is a naval mount for what I think is a 1" gun (?).

Dave[/quote]

Certainly looks like the one inch. I wonder how a USN gun showed up there. Maybe Jarrett had it in his museum when he donated his collection.

Any idea what the text says ?


#10

Just goes to show, “rare” is a relative term! For some things, that description doesn’t work. Thank you for showing those items.

RARE to me means that it is not in most serious collections. These are in most of the older collection . New collections , I don’t know.

The particular example of the coiled which is in this photo is actually beyond RARE. It is a dummy filled with stone dust. It look exactly like the typical ball except for a hole in the side which is taped here but was originally covered INSIDE with a celuloid patch.


#11

Dr. Schmitt,

The text reads:

"The Nordenfeldt Machine Gun was developed in Europe between 1873 and 1876(?) and used throughout the Continent until after the turn of the century. In the Nordenfeldt Gun, from 2 to 6 barrels were placed in horizontal alignment and fired in succession or in volleys by moving a lever on the right side of the breach backward and forward. A hopper type magazine supplied the ammunition by gravity. The empty shells fell out of openings in the bottom of the action as they were extracted by the backward movement of the hand lever. Several hundred shots per minute could be delivered from this gun.

The gun was very popular throughout Europe during the 1880’s. This particular piece is on a naval mount. The gun’s capacity for volley firing was considered a good defense against the light torpedo boats of the period. Although we do not possess written documentation, our best guess is that the Spanish Navy took the gun to the Philippines where it was captured by the Filipino rebels and then re-captured by the U.S. Army during the Philippine Insurrection."

Dave


#12

[quote="DrSchmittCSAEOD"This illustration does not say GATLING nor NORDENFELT on it.

[[color=#0000BF]b]The illustration says gatling (see picture below)

The other illustration about Nordenfeld said : Nordenfeld[/b][/color]

Further, it is not the typical one inch NORDENFELT as we know it. It does not have the same bullet nor the characteristic paper wrap between the head and tube. The primer is also distinctive but I do not have a photo handy.

[color=#0000FF]This drawing is from 1871, meaning just after the beginning of the gatling gun.
(This drawing is more than 15 years older than the first SFM drawings of any ctge you can find, because except two or three exceptions they start in 1888.[/color]

[color=#0000FF]The Gatling guns shown on the drawing (and the particular ctge shown) were used during the rebellion in Paris in 1870
Therefore you can find small differences with the ctge you know which is surely more recent and perhaps not made at all in France.[/color]

Buttweiler said that this particular EXACT cartridge type was made by SFM and that documents exist to prove it.

[color=#000080]Regarding the SFM archives there are (to my knowledge) only three drawings of Gatling ctges:
the two first one (dated from 1895) show solid case ctges.
the third one (dated from 1904) show also a solid case ctge.
Regarding Nordenfeld ctges they are only two drawings (dated from 1900 and 1901) which show solid case ctges.

(I am not talking of primers and bullets but just from the cases)[/color]

[color=#000080]Ask Buttweiller if he saw that in the SFM drawings files or somewhere else. In one of the many books SFM used to have for example, showing non SFM manufactures.[/color]

[color=#0000BF]They are very very few ctges after 1888 made by SFM with rolled case.
Therefore if SFM dit it I think it is before this date.
I can talk only about the documents i know, some people have perhaps more info.[/color]

[/quote]


#13

Thank you. Excellent info. Does not answer the question but certainly shows a coiled one inch Gatling.

Buttweiler is no longer in the ammo game and has no further interest. " bullets are boring " was his final comment to me on the subject. I did run him down when I published the BUTTWEILER ARCHIVE in order to secure the copyrights. That was a couple of years back. He doesn’t want to be bothered with ammo questions.


#14

Said to be of French manufacture, a coiled case 1" Gatling.


#15

French made ( GEVELOT’s) coiled one inch cartridges and early drawn cases even rare are known in several variations . The most common is the 1 inch coiled case Palmcrantz which figures in the 1878 Gévelot price list. It is the one referenced CFMG 100 in Hoyem’s II.All known samples were found out of France but the manufacture is out of doubt Gévelot’s using the typical French Tabatière primer construction
Now with the rest of the known samples , we can find two main differences . It is a question of case lengh
For a similar ball type one can find two case lengh 90mm and 100 mm but the TL keeps identical
The short case lengh 90 mm exist in two construction type : two pieces folded brass sheets crimped over a brass cup , iron head early Gevelot battery cup primer
Second type: coiled brass sheet, with one piece brass base cup and rim or brass cup and iron head , primer identical as above.

100mm case : coiled brass case, brass base cup, iron head , primer identical as above. Coiled variations may have existed but samples are not known to my knowledge.

Now early drawn brass case , two variations are known: one with battery cup primer of the same type as above and an iside primed version
All the described ctgs Gévelot made, are without hstp and were manufactured from 1868 to about mid 1870 when Gatlings were tested… and used by French governments.
Found a dummy round , empty case , empty primer pocket without flash holes.

At the end of the 1870’s solid head drawn cases are introduced in the 1 inch caliber ( solid head, drawn brass small arms cartridges were already manufactured as early as 1871 ). Only 100 mm cases are manufactured , they can be found with or without the “GEVELOT PARIS” hstp . Berdan primer. Two types of bullets are known ogival type similar to the earliest types and rounded shape corresponding to a multiball round.
It is also time of the introduction of an armor percing lead belted round , 100 mm case found with or without the “GEVELOT PARIS” hstp certainly early version of the well known Nordenfeld
One more version was found long ogival flat tip lead round heavy head case 100 mm long , no hstp TL 132 mm correspondig to the TL of the last AP Nordenfeld version .
At the period of SFM , Armor percing , blank with cork bullet and box wood bullets Nordenfeld are manufactured , found with or without SFM hstp
Also multiball Gatling rounds without hstp.

All the described cartridges were found at the ISSY les Moulineaux Plant
If required , photos can be added.
H.A.N.D
phil


#16

So not French. Thanks for that Phil.
Anyone have any thoughts as to the maker of mine?


#17

Pete it sure looks like Hoyem’s CFMG 127 which he identifies as French in his Vol 2 (pg 145). His description says no headstamp but otherwise it looks identical. I have no idea where he got the identification of French.

Cheers,

Lew


#18

Curiously a few of this specific type were found in France but the type of primer ( looks to be Berdan) doesn’t correspond to the Gevelot’s of the period ( battery cup ) !
But you never know
phil


#19

helo Philippe,

the one I shown was made by Gevelot, wasn’t it ?
thanks
jp


#20

thanks !