Three military rounds to be identified


#1

Could someone, please, tell me what these cartridges are exactly (from left):

  1. .30 cal short lead bullet, h/s: F A 3 3
  2. 6,5 mm Carcano GMCS jacketed bullet, tip open exposing aluminium (?) core, two crimps around the bullet, h/s: C.A. B-42
  3. 8 mm Danish Krag, h/s: 19 V.II.17 18 HL

Thank you in advance,

Mika Pitkanen,
Finland


#2

The second one is a 6,5 carcano with a frangible M37 Magistri bullet ( copper washed)


#3
  1. the cartrigde 8*58R is a blank for launching riffelgrenat

#4

Thanks Pivi and m89,

I was figuring out those cartridges to be such as you confirmed, but I wasn’t 100 % sure about them. However, m89, do you have any more information about the 8 mm Danish grenade propulsion cartridge? Which grenade was it for, what was its designation…?

The real mystery is left to be solved… This strange .30 cal. Any ideas?

Mika


#5

I believe the 30-06 is a indoor gallery practice cartridge. Some were made factory new (often using brass case seconds) and were also made via reloading brass.
Gregg


#6

The .30-06 appears to be a hand-made cartridge. I’ve seen a number of these where someone has expertly re-shaped the lead bullet. There was no official gallery or guard cartridge with this shaped bullet.
Chris P.


#7

Chris,

I’ve looked though all the books I have covering .30-06 cartridges, also the one of yours and Hackley et al. being not able to find any identification for this cartridge. However, I still wouldn’t like to accept the idea it’s a fake. It really looks like a factory made one, no marks of tampering whatsoever. And the bullet doesn’t look reshaped either.

Any second opinions before I have to give up my hope?

Mika


#8

Just an addition about the 6.5 mm carcano.The bullet is Tombak washed steel ( tombak is a metal alloy similar to brass in its chemical composition,but reddish like copper).
Yes,this bullet contains alluminium.In the bullet there is also sand and lead


#9

Mika,
I said it appears to be hand-made and without a close look I admit I cannot be certain. Those that I have taken apart appear to be the remnants of the M1919 Gallery bullet (from 1933 called the M1 Guard) - the position of the cannelures was identical. Since it is in a military case and there is no known US ofificial Gallery or Guard cartridge with that bullet profile I suspect is is either hand-loaded or a turned-down M1919 bullet. I agree it is well made. The only gallery/short range bullet that I know of with that profile is the Japanese “1,000-inch” gallery but that always had a jacketed bullet and was post-1953.


#10

Chris - Interesting that the JDF used the 1,000 Inch range as well. We used to do traverse and search exercises with the .30 M1919A4 LMG on the 1,000 inch range, on a weird target. I was never much good at following the angles, only on the straight horizontal and vertical parts of the target.


#11

Chris,

I do know that there is no US gallery cartridge with a bullet having this profile, I’m also aware it most likely isn’t any experimental one either. I was just hoping there might have been a good explanation for this cartridge, or someone who has seen a similar one before.

Perhaps I have to pull the bullet to see if there is any similarity to M1919 Gallery bullet…

Mika


#12

After carrying one–only from the vehicle to the firing point on the range-- it seems odd to hear the M1919A4 “Browning MG” referred to as a “Light MG.” I think the efforts to reduce the weight and make it useable without a tripod in the A6 version bears this out! Browning gunners and crew with any model were obviously in better shape than I am!


#13

Dug back into my two oldest Lyman manuals. Oldest does not have a cover so do not know how old it is. No. 35 is a little later. Both list two lead bullets with that nose shape. Number 3118, 115 gr and number 311316 111 gr. 3118 plain base, 311316 gas check. 3118 has 2 deep round bottom grease grooves. 311316 lower groove is a flat bottom grease groove upper groove is beveled and is a crimping groove. Maybe rather than pulling the bullet an x-ray might show the configuration. Although from the posted picture the 30-06 lead bullet does not seem the show any mold marks. Over the years there have been many commercial lead bullets that were swaged

Gourd


#14

Gourd,

Thank you for your post. The bullet really appears to be a swaged one, so perhaps this just is a commercially made lead bullet somebody has loaded in a .30 military case.

Mika

[quote=“gamgjm”]Dug back into my two oldest Lyman manuals. Oldest does not have a cover so do not know how old it is. No. 35 is a little later. Both list two lead bullets with that nose shape. Number 3118, 115 gr and number 311316 111 gr. 3118 plain base, 311316 gas check. 3118 has 2 deep round bottom grease grooves. 311316 lower groove is a flat bottom grease groove upper groove is beveled and is a crimping groove. Maybe rather than pulling the bullet an x-ray might show the configuration. Although from the posted picture the 30-06 lead bullet does not seem the show any mold marks. Over the years there have been many commercial lead bullets that were swaged

Gourd[/quote]


#15

Taber - Officially the M1919A4 is a Light Machine Gun. The .50 Browning is a Heavy Machine Gun. The M1919A6 was a move to not only lighten the gun, but to make it tactically handier ala the German MG34 and 42. Hence, not only the lightened barrel and elimination of tripod and traversing gear, but also the carrying handle and buttstock.

That said, I agree with you. As an assistant gunner, I carried the gun. The gunner carries the tripod. On long marches in hot weather, it was miserable as it had no carrying handle, and the receiver of the gun is all sharp edges, while the barrel cooling jacket is relatively small in diameter and with the holes (more sharp edges), was equally uncomfortable if carrying over one shoulder. At 34 pounds or so, if I remember correctly, it was a miserable gun to carry, although a good gun for practical rate of fire and reliability. The 1919A6 was somewhat easier to carry, and the gunner got stuck with the job! All the assistant gunner had to carry was spare barrels, if available and being fielded, or a can of ammo.