"Tiger" 7.62 x 39 and 7.62 x 25 Tokarev headstamp


#1

Can anyone positive identify the maker and country of a 7.62 x 39 cartridge headstamped “TIGER SBF” and a 7.62 x 25 mm Tokarev Cartridge headstamped
"TIGER TR"?

The 7.62 x 39 does not appear to be a product of “Tiger Brand” from Russia. The headstamping
is not up to that quality. I don’t have the cartridge, so don’t ask. It appears to have a CWS case, and a typical large, brass-cup primer with no seal or primer crimps. That is all the information I have.


#2

News to me! The CWS case leads me to a Chinese or Russian origin, but who knows.


#3

John Moss–I agree with Jonnyc. I have not seen this headstamp. Where did you run into it?


#4

The 7.62 x 39 was a picture sent to me, and with additional mention, but no picture, of the 7.62 Tokarev. It is an LE inquiry and that is about all I can say about it.


#5

Here’s the headstamp in question, just received the pic from another source. As soon as I opened the pic, my first thought was that I’ve seen similar work on cases from Darra, Pakistan. No evidence, just a first hunch.


#6

Jon, great! Is this a 7.62 TT ?


#7

That’s actually the x39. I just got the Tokarev pic and the bottom letters are TF. I have also just gotten pretty solid confirmation that these are Pakistani “locally-made” rounds. The Tokarev case is brass.


#8

Jon - My thought was that they are probably Darra Cartridges, or from somewhere else in Pakistan, as well.
That’s why I mentioned that I thought the headstamping was not up to the quality of Russian “tiger” or “Golden Tiger” brand ammunition. However, not that it matters for potential identification, but the letters at the bottom of the 7.62 x 25 mm “TIGER” round are “TR” as I first reported it, not “TF.” I now have a picture of that headstamp as well, and the letters are clearly “TR.”

The very thin lines and fairly large letters of the headstamp are very reminiscent of a couple of “38” (Yuryusan’s code)-marked Tokarevs I have, that I do not believe were actually made, or perhaps I should say headstamped, at Yuryusan.

Thanks for the second opinion. I value your expertise on this cartridge highly, and I was not confident enough about my own impressions to even venture the guess.

I can add here, from addition correspondence, that none of the top collectors in these calibers seem to have any documentation on this “TIGER” headstamp, and that it had not been seen by any of them until these pictures were sent to some of us for possible identification.


#9

I’m trying to organize some box and cartridge pics, will post here if I get them.
John, I’d really like to see your “possibly Darra” Tokarevs next to a definitely Russian 38 example.


#10

Jon - I will make a photo or a scan of the headstamps and send it to you directly. If you want to
you can post it on the Forum here. It may not be until tomorrow. I have to go out for awhile grocery
shopping, and about the time I get back, a friend will get here to the house (coming from Maine via
Tucson, and I will not have any time the rest of the day.


#11

Jon & John, please enlighten me who might that be in Pakistan making such cartridges. What companies are these? Who do they supply? Are other hs kown? Shouldn’t we see more such cartridges/cases showing up?

So far I only knew about POF made ones in 7.62x39 (and that only being recent production).


#12

Alex - Remember, my friend, the famous Darra is in a province of Pakistan, although the Pakistani Govt. barely
rules there. It is a city of gun makers (ammunition as well) that specialize in copying any firearm one wants, from old British Muskets up to 20 and 30 mm cannon. Mostly small arms. I have some Darra-reloaded 9 mm Para rounds in my collection, brought back from there by a friend 30 years ago. Some of the shops there have improved their machinery quite a bit since then, although we would look on all of them as pretty primitive. I don’t know the name of any specific shop in Darra, if they even have them, but there are many. Darra copies of Russian weapons, especially the Kalashnikov and the Makarov are very popular now. I have a Darra-made Makarov in almost new condition, and recently acquired a stripped slide, obiously from the same maker, with a serial number only about 20 numbers different. The pistol has a very good rendition of Soviet markings found on the pistols from Izhevsk, and recently there was argument among people familiar with the Makarov but not with Darra that the guns in question were Russian. They are not.

I also have an unfinished brass .32 auto case that was to be a cartridge completely made in Darra. It was brought to me about 15 or 20 years ago by a San Francisco Police Officer friend who at the time, was on leave working with the CIA in a field in which he was expert. He was the only SFPD Officer that was also a fully credentialed (with badge and ID card) Philippine police officer as well. I wish it had been at least a finished case, but it was interesting as well.

The unfinished .32 case and the headstamps and a couple of cartridge profile pictures of the reloaded 9mm rounds are in an article I wrote “Cartridges from Darra, Pakistan,” on pages 2828-29, IAA Journal Issue 422, Nov/Dec 2001,
in case anyone is interested in seeing it.

I would wager that at least 85% of the ammunition, especially with spurious markings and other than that made by the official Pakistani Ordnance Factory (POF), made in Pakistan is made in Darra.


#13

There is a large market in Pakistan for what they call the .30 Bore cartridge. Difficult to say exactly who makes it, as some is sold fraudulently as Russian, American, or Chinese import ammo. I have a few different brand names documented, and I’ll try to post some info. Unfortunately, the guys there are reluctant to send me any boxes or cases, and the pictures aren’t always usable for the Forum.


#14

I have seen pictures of several Pakistani brands of 7.62 mm Tokarev / 7.63 mm Mauser ammunition, including Diamond, Double Dragon, Double Star, Expert, Geco, Gorilla, Norinco and Winchester Xpert. It would be great learning more about these rounds.


#15

Well, you just spoiled my post and named just about all I have!!! ;)
I have been trying to get box and headstamp pics of all of them, but it has been difficult. Fede, have you gotten any good images?


#16

Jon, sorry! I’ll post some nice looking pictures to make you feel better.


#17

That would be great. All my box pics are in Word and I’m having trouble getting them in a format to post. Another Pakistani maker I have a box pic of is NETWORK.


#18

Jon, I worked hard to post these pictures. Here we go:

Diamond and Expert by Khyber Arms Company (KAC):

Gorilla Ammunition Factory (GAF):

Double Star Ammunition Factory:

NORINCO:

NORINCO (BBF spurious brand):

Geco (spurious brand by?):

Winchester Xpert (YAF spurious brand):

Cartridges (some reloaded) and headstamps from Double Star, NORINCO (7.63 x 25), Winchester Xpert, Geco and NORINCO boxes (first headstamp reads ???, second reads MRCO 7.63 ???)

I believe there is also another BBF brand box but I’ll have to look further to find its picture (at least exist in 9 mm Parabellum).


#19

John & Jon & Fede, awesome images and information on Darra. I wish we had these for detailed research.


#20

Excellent Fede. I’ll try to post the other few that I have.