Here is probably an easy one for the great and woundrous Arizona Wildcat Wiz.

Bullet .171"
Neck .197"
Shoulder .404"
Base .414"
Rim .492"
Case length 1.810"

It has no headstamp.

Guy - who “wounded” the “woundrous” one in Arizona?

Sorry, couldn’t let it go by considering the usual banter between you and Ray. People like me, who can’t spell well anyway and therefore live in a glass house, shouldn’t throw stones, I know. I just couldn’t resist it. Hee! Hee! The Devil made me do it!

Old Guy,

An easy one indeed. That one doesn’t even require the wonderous one to get out of his easy chair to ID. It’s a 17 Ackley Super Pee Wee Rimmed. Made from any of the 30-30 family of brass (22HP, 25-35, 219 Zipper, etc). There is, naturally, a 17 Ackley Super Pee Wee Rimless made from 25 Remington brass.


Well, being an equal opportunity insulter, but only to my friends like Ray and guy, I can’t let “wonderous” go by. Webster says its “wondrous.” I love this - the nearly illiterate John Moss getting to give a spelling lesson. My Lord, its the end of the world! I love this Forum!

That may have been a Freudian slip on my part, subconsciously feeling that I may have wounded Ray in labeling him as a redneck in an unrelated discussion yesterday.

And speaking of Ray - is there such a wildcat as a .257 Helldiver? I promise I didn’t make it up - one of my odd-ball cartridges is labeled as such. I think I need to start chunking the non-conforming cartridges in the trash can when I encounter them rather than dropping them in my ‘wildcat’ box and having to fuss over them year after laborious year.

John & Guy

I think it was Ben Franklin who said that only an ignorant man spells a word one way. But, you’re right John, you got both of us. I blame my error on not paying attention in English class. If it weren’t for a dictionary and thesaurus I’d be lost.

257 Helldiver doesn’t ring a bell but I would never say one doesn’t exist. Dimension checking would probably match it with some other identical wildcat with another name.

Don’t throw them in the trash. Throw them in a cigar box and when there are enough to justify the UPS I’ll gladly pay it just to look at them.

And, I forgot to mention, there is another wildcat called the 17 Ackley Pee Wee, hence the “Super” version.

Are the Pee Wee and Super Pee Wee essentially the same, with the super being larger at the shoulder. I have another cartridge in the collection identified as an Ackley Super Pee Wee, but the shoulder measures .366 and the case is about 1/10th of an inch longer than the one pictured above.

Don’t worry about any spelling error gents. I have to use my dictionary everytime I write something. I spell better than some, just from reading and writing so much, but I make some wonderful spelling errors out of my own ignorance sometimes, and many, many more from bad typing on the computer. I used to be a really good typist, but the ease of crrection on these new-fangled machines has turned me into the world’s sloppiest typist!

Both you guys keep up the wonderful, interesting and informative postings you give us. Who would have ever thought there was really a cartridge named “.17 Acley super Pee Wee Rimmed!!!” Great stuff. Makes me want to collect wildcats (heck, in a sense I do. I collect wildcat auto pistol cartridges!).

I get told once in awhile that I am too serious about this ammo stuff, so every now and then, I have to poke a little fun. You guys just got elected this time.

In the interest of getting you out of the recliner for a little exercise, I offer the following from my box of wildcats:

Dimensions are:
bullet .257"
neck (split) .289
shoulder .437
base .467
rim .471
case length 2.546
headstamp L C 53

bullet .257"
neck (split) .284
shoulder .494
base .511
rim .530
case length 2.540
headstamp WEATHERBY .257 MAGNUM

bullet .224"
neck (split) .243
shoulder .294
base .315
rim .374
case length 1.640
headstamp W.R.A.CO. .25-20


The 17 Ackley Pee Wee is a tiny cartridge made from the 30 Carbine case necked to 17 caliber. The rimmed version is made from the 218 Bee brass and I’ve seen it called both a 17 Pee Wee and a 17 Bee.

I’m not aware of a 17 wildcat similar to the Super Pee Wee with a 1/10" longer case length. But, there are several 22 caliber wildcats with a 1.9 to 2.0 inch CL and it could be one of them that has been necked down to 17. Or it could be nothing more than a Super Pee Wee with a longer case although the smaller shoulder diameter suggests it is something else.

With any wildcat cartridge, you just never know. Seldom do you find the old ones with the exact dimensions listed in most reference books. Unlike today, chamber reamers were a personal thing often made by the shooter hisself and he could make it look like whatever he wanted.Even the venerable 219 Wasp comes in different case lengths, even those made by Harvey Donaldson hisself.

The cartridge that you pictured is actually a wee bit shorter in neck length and CL than what Ackley shows (1.810 vs 1.840). Part of the difference could be the result of removing the headstamp, part could be from case trimming, and part could be just because that’s the way the shooter wanted it.



Looks like we were typing at the same time. Plus I was proof-reading John’s post for errors so it took me a few minutes to answer.

Of those three that you pictured - let me start with the easiest one first.

Middle - Isn’t that a 257 Weatherby Magnum? Is there something about it that makes you think it’s a wildcat?

Right - That’s a 22/3000 Lovell. Looks like a 5 degree shoulder?

Left - That looks like a 257 Helldiver to me. :) :)

First glance says it’s a 25-06 except for the neck length. I’d need a base to beginning of shoulder measurement. There were several of those pre-25/06 Remington wildcats and this is likely just one of them. I think the next JOURNAL will have an article by me on the 25-06 and it’s wildcat predecessors. The cartridge goes all the way back to 1920 and the 06 necked to 25 has been wildcatted to death since then.


There is also a very light writing on the cartridge on the left “257 HELL…”.

Ray.I have found several 6,5 x 55 cases (not only one,but almost 20 or 30) at my shooting range whose neck had been shawn in 4 sections.What’s the purpose of this modification?
The shooting range chief said me that this neck provides a better accuracy,but I can hardly think so

Regarding the .257 Weatherby. I’d hate to think all these wildcats have made me start questioning even the legitimate cartridges. Blast all of you wildcatters. I have included a picture here of the cartridge in question (on the right) next to a dummy .257 Weatherby. To me, the soulder looks higher and has a more rounded look to it. I imagine the longer shoulder could be the result of the cartridge having been fired in a rifle with excessive headspace. It has definately been fired.

What is written on the side of the case is .257 Helldiver, which sounds as if whoever named it had a WW2 aviation background. I can’t imagine why it would be given such a name, unless the bullet has a poor trajectory - drops like a rock.


I think it’s a 257 WBY Magnum. The belted cases headspace on the belt, not the shoulder, so there is always a certain amount of space betwix case shoulder and chamber shoulder, and most fired cases will show a fire-formed shoulder somewhat different than the factory new case. If you’ll look at a cartridge like the 375 H&H you’ll see a marked difference in factory vs fired shoulders.


[quote=“Pivi”]I have found several 6,5 x 55 cases (not only one,but almost 20 or 30) at my shooting range whose neck had been shawn in 4 sections.What’s the purpose of this modification?
The shooting range chief said me that this neck provides a better accuracy,but I can hardly think so[/quote]


I assume that the slits are evenly divided and well made and not something that would result from split necks?

There are cases where the necks are split to hold a bullet loosely so that they can be used for bullet seating gauges. But they are usually one of a kind and the fact that you found 20 or 30 of them probably rules that out.

It’s true that uniform neck tension plays an important role in accuracy but there are much easier ways to achieve this. But, knowing shooters, I would not doubt that someone may have thought that splitting the necks was a logical way to get uniform tension. And, the 6.5 x 55 is a very popular target cartridge in Europe. So, the range chief’s explanation could very well be true.

But then there is the question - why would a shooter go to all that trouble and then discard the cases?

I’ll be in touch in the next few days about sending a package to you. Sorry for the delay.


Thanks. I’ll chunk it in the junk bucket. Wish I could figure out some way to convert lead and brass into an alternative fuel. I noticed this morning the price of gas had come down to $3.35 a gallon at my local station, and couldn’t help wishing I had had the forsight to put a couple of the 5 gallon cans in the truck so I could hoard some of this cheap gas.