Translation Needed


#1

Can someone please translate this for me. From a carton of 7.62mm NATO.

[b]20 CARTUCHOS, BALA PORFORANTE CON NUCHLEO DE ACERO

FOR : EL FUSIL FABRICA NATIONAL[/b]

For the experimental Belgian FAL, I believe. Made by Atlantis Munitions Corp. Anyone recognize them?

Thanks

Ray


#2

Hey, I can do this one!

20 CARTRIDGES, PIERCING BALL (AP) WITH STEEL CORE

FOR: THE NATIONAL RIFLE FACTORY

Was I close? Never took a Spanish class in my life!


#3

20 Cartridges, Armor-Piercing bullet, with steel core
For: the FN Rifle

Ray - the rifle is probably the FN-FAL.

Edit: Jon, you posted yours while I was typing mine. The only correction I would make to yours is the it says for the FN Rifle, not "for the National Rifle Factory. That would read something like “por la Fábrica Nacional de Fuciles.”


#4

Thanks guys - so far. I’m in the process of trying to ID the carton and contents. This is step one. A lot more later.

Ray


#5

What do you think, John…a C+ for me?


#6

Ray, this is a very intriguing and interesting box. The complete label should read:

20 CARTRIDGES, BALL
(20 CARTUCHOS, BALA PERFORANTE CON NUCLEO DE ACERO)
Caliber 7.62 N.A.T.O.
FOR: PROTYPE RIFLE T48, HARRINGTON & RICHARDSON ARMS CO.
POR: EL FUSIL FABRICA NATIONAL
ATLANTIS MUNITIONS CORP.

On the side reads: “Caliber 7.62 N.A.T.O.” with a rubber stamp “REPACKED APR 15 1960” or “REPACKED FEB 10 1961” (more dates may exist)

I couldn’t find anything on “Atlantis Munitions Corp”, if this firm actually existed. We may think this was done for an Spanish speaking country, but who was testing the H&R T48 rifles in 1960-61? Text “EL FUSIL FABRICA NATIONAL” makes no sense in Spanish but could be a wrong translation for “Fabrique National d’Armes [de Guerre, Herstal]” and the word “PROTYPE” for “PROTOTYPE” may indicate that this label wasn’t made by an English speaker either. Anyone knows if the remaining T48 rifles illustrated in H&R commercial brochures were available on the civilian market? Where are these rifles, except for museums?

Another interesting fact is that rounds inside the 1960 dated box are reformed .30 Model 1906 cases headstamped S L 43. Confusing, isn’t it?


#7

Fede

Do you have such a carton or did you see the one sold on Gun Broker? I now own the GB carton. I bid on the 5 cartons of Match ammunition and this 7.62mm carton was in with them. I’m now trying to determine what it is.

After the adoption of the 7.62mm NATO cartridge in 1954, the US was still developing the new rifle. They contracted with H&R to build 500 T48 prototypes which were basically the Belgian FAL. The T48 was tested against the T44 in 1955 and 1956, and while the T48 was probably a better rifle, the T44 was adopted as the M14 in 1957. The H&R rifles were disposed of and I don’t know if any of them survived.

The cartridges in the carton are made from Cal .30 brass headstamped SL 43. They appear to be unfired, including the original primer. Powder charge is an IMR type. Bullets appear to be GMCS M2, although I have yet to dissect one to see if it is actually a steel core.

Since the carton was opened when I got it, I have no idea if the cartridges are original. I was hoping to learn a little more about the cartridges before asking about it here, but now that the cat’s out of the bag, do any of you guys have any guesses? It may be nothing more than handloads made up to fill the carton but that would have been a lot of work for so little gain.


#8

Before getting any further into this I think a couple of basic assumptions are in order.

  1. We have to assume that the cartridges are original to the carton. Otherwise all I have is an empty carton filled with someones hand loads.

  2. The cartridges have to date to the late 1950s.

  3. They are not a product of H&R. They would have had access to standard GI ammunition.

So, anyone have any ideas?

Ray


#9

Ray
Very nice box (even if the cartridges turn out to be hand loads and aren’t originally from the box). Based on postings on various forums and a chapter in Steven’s book “The fabled FAL” it would seem that a number of the H&R T48’s ended up at Quantico. However, this doesn’t appear to account for all of them.
I wonder if H&R tried to compete with FN for contract to supply the FN-FAL/T48 as a way of recouping the costs involved in setting up manufacturing lines for the rifle especially after US Ordnance adopted the T44/M14? If so, could some H&R T48’s have ended up in civilian hands and thus created a need for ammuntion - if this is the case, I doubt that there would be 7.62mm NATO ammunition or fired cases available in the late 50’s and early 60’s so using reformed .30 cal cases would be a viable option. However, the need couldn’t be that great as the number of rifles would be small. But why the use of Spanish on the box unless the rifles ended up in Spanish speaking countries (South American nations)?

All speculation with no evidence to back it up!

NATO Dave


#10

I sliced open one of the bullets. They are GMCS jacket, lead core. They appear to be M2. So, they don’t match that part of the box label. For what it’s worth.

Ray


#11

Ray, I don’t have one, only pictures and a description of the rounds taken from a sealed carton. Another owner of one of these reported to have found cartridges with “oddball characters/writing on it” and “they’re marked w/some kind of Hebrew letters I believe, plus a 55 and a Star of David”. Converted Israeli 8x57?

Also, note that the rifle isn’t a H&R T48 but a FN T48 with light barrel, so this is full of mistakes. Is this just a fantasy label?

As a side note, Argentina made 7.62x51 cartridges from 7.65 mm Mauser cases between 1959 and 1962, first starting with recent made ones (1953/52/51) and in the last years with cases as old as 1939. This wasn’t a desperate measure but a way of making good use of stored Mauser brass.


#12

I’m wondering if the carton and cartridges have anything at all to do with H&R or the H&R T48 rifes? Maybe the label is intended as a sales pitch?


#13

Ray, I have found a small ad published in January 1962 that confirms that this was indeed a real company. The full text says:

“.308 WIN. cal. surplus military Ammo. $13.95 per C, 7.7mm (31 cal.) Japanese Arisaka military Ammo., $10.95 per C, American made. Atlantis Munitions Corp., P.O. Box 2, Santa Rosa, Calif.”

Regards,

Fede


#14

Thanks Fede. I had forgotten about that carton and the questions I asked about it 2 1/2 years ago.

I hope NATO Dave is reading this because I gave the carton to him a long time ago. It’s not my area of interest.

Ray


#15

Fede
Thanks for this additional information - I’d given up on the origin of this neat box (Thanks Ray). It’s interesting that the ad reads “.308 WIN. cal. surplus military Ammo”. The question I now have is did the ad refer to the box shown in this thread or did the company also sell reloads labeled as .308 WIN?

NATO Dave