Translation of :Polish needed

Back again with another request for a translation, this time from Polish to English.

“Ministerstwo Spraw Wewnetrznych, Sprzet specjalny MO”

The letters “e” in the third and the fourth words should have a little tail at the bottom of the letter, but can’t reproduce it here.

I would also like to know the Polish words represented by the letters “MO,” as well as a translation of those words.

For the record, the translation needed is the heading for a report on a Polish cartridge, so it is relevant to this Forum.

Thank you for any help with this. I am trying to clean up some “hang-fire” projects.

John Moss

Ministry of Internal Affairs, Special Equipment MO

MO as Milicja Obywatelska (Citizens’ Militia)

If I am wrong, please correct me.

Hard for me to correct you, because I don’t speak a word of Polish! However, I think the “Ministry of the Interior” makes more sense in this instance, since the report is about a short range 9 x 18 mm Makarov cartridge intended for use inside airplanes and the like - a “less than lethal” load for Security Police. In that case, would “Citizens’ Militia” make sense? That is an honest question, by the way, and not a sign that I disagree with you. Again, I am totally ignorant about the Polish language. I think the mention of the Ministry of National Defense would be more likely (I see you mention that in the email I received about this thread, but it is missing when I view the thread itself), but I would think that the Ministry of the Interior and the Ministry of National Defense would be two separate Departments in the Government(?).

Thank you for your input.

John M.

Citizens’ Militia is just a term in Polish to refer to police. Nowadays that very Milicja Obywatelska is called just Policja (Police). This all was from 1917 when Lenin was prosecuted by “police”, so the Progressives did not want to call their own security “police” so they invented “militia” term.
So it is Makarov for police.

When you told “less than lethal” load for Security Police” I knew “MO” will for sure mean “Milicja Obywatelska” (MON was just loose observation and you are right - they are two separate departments.). Milicja was set in PPR (Polish People Republic) by soviets in 1944 and existed until 1990. “Less than lethal” would have sense becouse of tons of revolts and demonstrations in Poland during comunism. The full sentence is “Ministerstwo Spraw Wewnętrznych, Sprzęt specjalny Milicji Obywatelskiej (MSW MO)”. In translation "Ministry of Internal Affairs, Special equipment of Citizens’ Militia). As sksvlad said it will be Makarov amunition for polish police - Citizens’ Militia (Militia in general and Polish Citizens’ Militia are two different things!)

anemon

Small interesting fact:
1944–1948 MO was used to fight with Polish underground, ukrainian UPA and german Werewolf.

Good translator with examples:
https://pl.glosbe.com/pl/en/Ministerstwo%20Spraw%20Wewnętrznych

https://pl.glosbe.com/pl/en/sprzęt%20specjalny

https://pl.glosbe.com/pl/en/milicja%20obywatelska



Gentlemen - Fabulous answers! Thank you very, very much for your help. It is far more information than I had hoped for, and clarifies the entire heading of the report for me. As mentioned, the report is about a short-range cartridge, primarily it seems, for what we call anti-sky-jacking use; that is firing aboard an aircraft or within buildings, where regular ball ammunition poses unseen hazards thru high-penetration. The round was made specifically for the Pistolet wz. P-64. Fortunately, the bulk of the report is in Polish, English, French and what I assume is Russian. Your kind contributions makes the entire two-page report useful to me, as like many Americans, I am poor with foreign languages.

Again, thank you all!!! :-)

John Moss

Hi, if you have a the same report which I saw - I have a one idea - in this report is probably a mistake.
One engineer who know this project [9x18], says it is a “Mucha” [housefly] (he know onlyprototype bath). Not a “Komar” = mosquito. [Komar is in .38 spl.]. But i dont have more info in this moment, or from other source.

Clipboard015

Przemek - Wow - thanks for that picture. I had one other question about the report. The English portion of the report, under the numbered (1 thru 7) photo captions, in number five, refers to a small, shiny disc as “stemming.” This is a mis-translation as far as I can discern. I note it in your picture on the base of the bullet, below the folded-up shot bag. Do you know of a better English word for this component. At first, I though it might be either an over-shot wad, or an obtutator, but because it is smaller in diameter than the folded bag itself, I am not sure it could function as the later. I am, admittedly, pretty ignorant on these technical details of specialized ammunition.

This is a load I have never seen “at hand” even though I have almost 700 Makarov rounds in my collection. Your photo is much better than the one in my copy of the report. From that, I deduced that the color of the bullet “cap” was either yellow or cream-color. I see it is white, as is the similar round from Bulgaria.

It is funny that you should mention the apparent error in designation, “Komar,” for this cartridge. Sitting right before me is an email from April 10th, from a European friend, that explains the same thing. I was gathering information as I want to include all information on this scarce Polish round for a study of 9 x 18 Makarov caliber pistols, their accessories, and ammunition. I will note the correction, as the knowledge of you and of my friend, who undoubtedly is known to you as well, far exceeds that of mine in these details.

Thank you again. This has turned into a thread of great interest to me, and I am grateful for the comments of all!

John Moss

  1. “stemming” I think its good name, in my cartr. are two lead sheet. And green plastic.


Clipboard0198

I have never seen one with yellow plastic. Maybe the one in the report is yellow. Unfortunately, no detailed data at this moment. The cartridge is from 1981 / 21 81.

Yes, Bulgaria based on PL . Friend says “Bulgaria bought licenses.” [?].

And one other piece:

2ca5bcfc4df8646d5fbe9956843cdab8a379ac816ac853a347097fcb35f99195

PM

Przemek - Thank you for the above. The Polish Report did not show or mention the green over-powder wad. It is clear that must be its function.

Regarding “yellow” projectile caps, they probably don’t exist. Note the cream color of the cap on the the cartridge in your picture “and one other piece.” That is what the report shows, but in a picture much poorer for observation than your very good photo. In my copy of that report, the color looked almost yellow. I am sure it is not. Likely, these were white but time has caused a bit of a color change.

I still don’t know the purpose of the silver-color (lead) discs, but I had forgotten that they are in the Bulgarian round also, as is the green over-powder wad. I forgot that I had disassembled one of these cartridges from Bulgaria, and that it was in my collection.
My unabridged dictionary has a column about 90 mm long, in very small print, of definitions for the word “stem” in all is forms, and none seem to describe any thing or function that could relate to these discs. That is why “stemming” is such a mystery to me.

Thank you for the comments on “Bulgarian based on Polish” regarding the cartridge type. For some reason, I thought it was the opposite, but since the Polish round is from at least 1981, and my earliest Bulgarian one is from ten years later - 1991 - that absolutely makes sense that it was FIRST Polish. This information is great for me, since all things concerning 9 x 18 Pistols, accessories and ammunition are my primary interest, and have been for 20 years.

Thank you! You have been a huge help to me.

John M.

mean wad or wadding (in english)

In report - yellow color

And from other article

Year - 1984, color - yellow (… z 1984 z zoltym plastikowym plaszczem…)

write that the earliest 1989

Hooke - Thank you! I still do not understand their function, especially since there are two of them. There is already a green over-powder wad. At least, though, the name now makes some sense to me.

Thank you for the information about the yellow plastic bullet “cap” from 1984. I still believe that I misinterpreted the color on the one pictured in the Polish Ministry of Interior report, as two different sources now have informed me that the known headstamp on these scarce rounds is from 1981. Does anyone have an actual specimen of one with a yellow “bullet?” I wish that I read Polish. I do understand the short comment about the yellow projectile cap, but can’t read the bulk of the information quoted.

I also appreciate the information about the earliest date on the Bulgarian “Short Stop” cartridge.

I really appreciate all the help given me here, however. It has been fabulous. Thank you!

John Moss

Unfortunately I do not have archival information about yellow plastic.
edit: [friend had ~6 pcs 9x18, all with white plastic with lead + green stemming. Hand made work prototype. Old white plastic turns yellow. Part of bullet in neck of case always white.]


Other inventive project in 9 mm cal. [this moment i dont have more info], titled:
“9 mm Makarov cartridge with anti-terrorist bullet”, 1988
and in cal [?]:
Inventive project titled “Modular anti-terrorist bullet”, 1988-89

And one sachet type bullet, by W. Stecki patent:

stecki

this photo?)

google translate polish-russian-english)))

In the early 1980s, the Mesko plant attempted to design 9 x 18 mm ammunition with a shot container bullet, similar to the revolver cartridges developed during the same period. 38 Special: Hornet, Wasp and Mosquito. However, the work did not give significant results. The problem was the difficulty of placing the bullet in a rather small cartridge case, while at the same time compressing the case neck while maintaining its shape. The second problem, which could not be solved, was to ensure the correct reloading of weapons. The study resulted in a small batch in the cases of 1984 with a yellow plastic bullet shell and the rest of the components taken from the Wasp .38 Special.

Hooke, Yes, that yellowish or cream-color bullet cap appears to be part of the main picture of the report I have. The picture even included the P-64 Pistol. Looking at the enlargement, it still looks yellow, but may be a result of the lighting used to take the picture, or some contamination of the white color, although I see yellow inside the capsule too, where you can see a tiny sliver of the inside wall of the cap at the bottom. If contaminated color, I would think that would still show white.

Still, from every other bit of information I have gotten, regardless of the color of this one, this type apparently was produced with white plastic bullet caps. If there is any information to the contrary, I would like to know.

I still don’t know what the complete function of the later, 1984, type was supposed to be. The patent drawing seems to show a single round ball inside the cap. The patent description in the English language does little to really explain the cartridge, and the drawing less, since many of the numbered components are not explained, and the explanation for “7” explains things not shown on the drawing, it seems, so it is hard to know the complete functioning.

Do others believer it was a shot-filled bag, like the earlier round. I know that a “sachet” is a small bag, in english, usually contains perfumed powder ot ground fragrant-flower parts. I suppose that translation could apply to any totally-sewn shut bag containing about anything.

How does this differ from the first type with white bullet? Since the date is c.1984, was it supposed to be some sort of improvement that works better in the P-83 Pistol, the replacement for the P-64? The cartridge drawing in the patent is actually proportioned like a 9 x 19 mm Parabellum cartridge, not like a Makarov round.

Boy, with some of this stuff, the “devil is in the details”, the very small details it seems.

John Moss

Hooke, Yes, that yellowish or cream-color bullet cap appears to be part of the main picture of the report I have. The picture even included the P-64 Pistol. Looking at the enlargement, it still looks yellow, but may be a result of the lighting used to take the picture, or some contamination of the white color, although I see yellow inside the capsule too, where you can see a tiny sliver of the inside wall of the cap at the bottom. If contaminated color, I would think that would still show white.

Still, from every other bit of information I have gotten, regardless of the color of this one, this type apparently was produced with white plastic bullet caps. If there is any information to the contrary, I would like to know.

I still don’t know what the complete function of the later, 1984, type was supposed to be. The patent drawing seems to show a single round ball inside the cap. The patent description in the English language does little to really explain the cartridge, and the drawing less, since many of the numbered components are not explained, and the explanation for “7” explains things not shown on the drawing, it seems, so it is hard to know the complete functioning.

Do others believer it was a shot-filled bag, like the earlier round. I know that a “sachet” is a small bag, in english, usually contains perfumed powder ot ground fragrant-flower parts. I suppose that translation could apply to any totally-sewn shut bag containing about anything.

How does this differ from the first type with white bullet? Since the date is c.1984, was it supposed to be some sort of improvement that works better in the P-83 Pistol, the replacement for the P-64?

Boy, with some of this stuff, the “devil is in the details”, the very small details it seems.

John Moss