Treasures from the Czech Meeting


#1

Just returned from the Czech meeting in Stoky and a visit with two of the collectors in and near Bratislava. Great time in Stoky. I attended my first meeting there in 2002 and have only missed one year since. Normally I attend the Fall meeting which is usually within a week of the ECRA meeting. There is also a Spring meeting and this is my first year to attend in the Spring.

The actual meeting is 9AM to 12AM on the Saturday morning, but people begin arriving on Friday about noon and like SLICS, there is a lot of activity before everyone retires on Friday evening. Most people speak Czech/Slovak and German. English is not heard, but everybody is very helpful and cartridge trades get made. A lot of people who I consider friends.

Below are some of the 9x19mm I’d like to share with you;


From Left:
–IVI paintball, but what is the significance of the black finish on the primer???
–A brass TPZ KOPP load. Most often this style headstamp is seen on Steel cases, but with a slightly different arrangement. The steel cases are either copperwashed or lacquered and the TPZ KOPP is rightside up.
–A dummy made by PS. Reportedly only about 100 made
–Current production for the Austrian Police
–Nickel plated case proof by S&B. very light hst “S&B @ 9mm LUGER@”. Label below

–Libra/Snail proof with SN for Snail. I have only seen this headstamp on proof loads although it is illustrated on other loads in a Libra catalog from some years ago. Knurled rim is unusual on Czech/Slovak proof loads.
–MMS proof load. Label below:

–Another S&B proofload

It seems possible based on the labels that all these proof load were made in the same facility using various cases. all but the one on far right were 100 rds packed loose in a sealed plastic bag with the label inside.



–Rubber bullet load intended to fire from a standard 9mm pistol. The same headstamp occurs on an extended case blank with a 6 flute crimp.
–HP load with a solid copper bullet
–Experimental Frangible bullet
–Polica load for URNA which, as I understand is a Slovak or Czech Police organization. perhaps another Forum member like EOD could correct me here.

These last two are called “Forensic” cartridges. Apparently they contain Galium oxide or gadolinium in tiny amounts in the powder. This provides a forensic trace apparently. The cartridges look very ordinary and I do not understand how this forensic marker is used. Perhaps one of our forum could provide some insight.

Overall a very good meeting. Lots of other cute stuff. I saw a 7.62x39mm with no headstamp and a pale gray aluminum case. Really cute item. A Hagler Gerlich round sold (I think I got that right). Anyway, it was a very impressive cartridge. By noon on Saturday, there were a lot of smiles as people left the meeting. I also picked up a few interesting boxes and a few other odds and ends. Time well spent. Also managed to find time to enjoy a number of the excellent Czech beers.

The visit in Bratislava was also excellent. Great hospitality, good food and a bit of wine, beer and whiskey to help the conversation flow. I saw some stunningly good cartridges, both 9mm and other calibers in the collections. Kept my cellphone camera busy trying to capture all the new (to me) items. Saw one of the Gray Steel 9 mm cylindrical cartridge" for the experimental ZB 47 smg made by Zbrojovka Brno mentioned in thread http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15831. I have the red lacq steel case and the brass case rounds but not the gray steel. Had hoped to find a J Roth 9mm Para. There are a few known and documented another one that is in Slovakia, but nothing to buy or trade—maybe next year!

Overall a lot of fun and very educational!

Cheers,
Lew


#2

Lew, URNA is the Czech Republic’s “Útvar rychlého nasazení”, a rapid reaction unit of the police and basically what we would call a SWAT unit.

The one for the Austrian Police is loaded with the Hirtenberger 6.5gram “FL” projectile (now made by S&B as Hirtenberger ceased ammo production after the takeover by RUAG).

Those red headed HPT proof loads are as indicated on the labels made by “Tormenta sro” which is making almost all HPT ammo for the Czech proof house. They use just any available cases (excess production, surplus and like MMS which is out of business for years) available at the lowest price what explains the random selection of headstamps we are observing for years.

The S&B frangible and the TPZ Kopp in brass are really interesting!


#3

Lew, “Forensic” is a requirement that the police in Germany has for the ammunition it purchases. It enables to tell whether firearm discharge residue at a crime scene is from a police weapon or not.


#4

Hi Lew
We haven’t spoken for a while but I just wanted to congratulate you on an interesting post but also to admire the airmiles you clock up in following your interest. You really do walk the walk don’t you?

Vince


#5

[quote=“VinceGreen”]
…but also to admire the airmiles you clock up in following your interest.

Vince[/quote]

Airmiles? Considering Lew’s background he should be flying in a C-5 reserved only for him…


#6

EOD,

I wish!!! In the “good old days” the C-5 put us up in the front with the crew and there were bunks to sleep all the way across. Now the best I can do is a window seat to lay my pillow against the wall.

Still, it is all worth it. Lots of friends I made decades ago and lots of great new items.

Remind me how old I have to be before I can’t do this anymore???

Seriously, It is the great friends as much as it is the cartridges. I went to my first European meeting in 1974 when I went to the RAF and have been back most years since.

See you in he Fall in Switzerland or in Germany.

Cheers,
Lew


#7

Yes, it seems the air force isn’t anymore what it used to be :)


#8

Lew, great finds! As usual, thanks a lot for sharing these pictures. Do you or anyone else have more information regarding the cartridges loaded by Tormenta? It seems that everything made by this company are special purpose loadings. Also, does anyone know the purpose of those strange 7.62x39 loadings with SVAPO bullets?


#9

Fede, the Tormenta stuff is basically all HPT only and for as far as I have seen one customer; the Czech proof house.

The SVAPO rounds were experimental ones for prison guards but went nowhere. There is a whole variety of them with different projectile materials but none which I examined myself (by now).
It seems they are hard to find.


#10

“Remind me how old I have to be before I can’t do this anymore???”

Lew, ask Bill Woodin; I’m sure he’ll let you know when he reaches the wall. ;)


#11

Alex, thanks, that is very interesting information. I would have never imagined that these were made for prison guards.

Lew, a possible explanation is that these are using Fiocchi ZetaPi non-toxic primers.


#12

Fede, this is just what a Slovak cop told me at the last ECRA show in Germany.

I think there was also an article on them in the Czech or Slovak ECRA bulletin but I am not sure anymore let alone a proper translation of all that.