TsNIITOCHMASH of Russia Announces They Plan To Start Production of 9x19mm Marker Cartridges in 2020

John, “faulty translation” is kindly said!
I looked up the Russian and even there it appears to be cranky.
They mean the sight.

Thank you EOD. I don’t mean to be a nitpicker, but this information is important to me.

John

Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs ordered the development of marking cartridges in 2010-2011.
The following was required:

  • Full copying of Simunition marking cartridges;
  • License agreement with the company Simunition for the right to use patents.
    It is interesting to know whether a license agreement has been concluded. Maybe patents expire in 2020?
1 Like

If they were licensed by Simunition, then I withdraw the words “blatant copy” from my comments.

John Moss

It must be borne in mind that marking cartridges were developed, but not produced. Research and development activities are not a violation of patents.

Mikhail

Mikhail - I was going by the pictures of the three marking cartridges the Russian factory indicates it IS manufacturing. I know that some degrees of R&D are not protected by previous patents.

John Moss

It should also be borne in mind that the caliber of Simunition marking cartridges is not 9 mm Luger (9 x 19), but 9 mm FX & CQT.

MikhailTABIVcal.pdf (87.2 KB)

Mikhail, In my view that is not entirely correct. I have many Simunition catalogs, and 23 different samples of packaging for the 9 mm. It is true that the packages simply show the designation “9 mm.” The letters FX, which is a trademark and for which I cannot find the words they abbreviate, if any, and others such as CQB (Close Quarters Battle), CQT (Close Quarters Training), SRTA (Short Range Training Ammunition), SRTA-T (Short Range Training Ammunition-Training) and perhaps others, simply designate the type of loading. This is no different than the designations of other brands of conventional ammunition, such as Winchester 9 mm SXT.

The first catalog I took from my Simunition Catalog file describes the FX cartridge as 9 x 19 mm FX. The numerical designation tells the story. A warning in the catalog says “Once the sub-calibre barrel is withdrawn, standard 9 x 19 mm ammunition will feed and chamber.” This, to me, indicates the cartridges are intended to be used with 9 mm LUGER caliber pistols, with a barrel modification as a safety measure so that no accidental shooting with live ammunition, during training with Simunition, can occur.

Were we not to classify these as 9 x 19 mm Luger caliber, then it would follow that we would not classify other 9 x 19 mm cartridges whose designations are followed by descriptive terms for cartridge TYPES (special loadings by name or initials, tracer, AP, etc) referring to them, instead, as being separate calibers.

Just my view of the subject, once again involving us in how we define ammunition items.

John Moss

FX cartridges, 9 x 19 mm FX, are widely used for practise by the Dutch police. However, they need a conversionkit, other barrels, because the projectile is not 9 mm.
So technically they are not 9mm, but there name is for sure 9 x 19 mm FX® Non-Marking (or Marking)

That’s also the common name on the boxes/labels.

Grtz
Jaco

Dear forum members,

The caliber of Simunition marking cartridges is 9 mm FX. To be sure, it is necessary to see the Simunition catalog.

product-catalog 9 mm FX.pdf (65.8 KB)

One of the principal requirements for marking cartridges is the difference between the caliber of marking cartridges and the caliber of combat cartridges in order to avoid accidental loading and firing combat cartridge. For this purpose, the barrel of standard combat pistols always must be replaced. This is considered in detail in my book.

The diameter of the bullet of Simunition marking cartridges less than the diameter of the bullet of 9 mm Luger (9 x 19) caliber cartridges. Accidentally loading 9 mm Luger caliber cartridges is impossible.

Mikhail

Yes, but the caliber of these weapons is 9 x 19 mm Luger. The special attachments are there to prevent accidents. We have special barrels or attachments for firing blanks, not only for safety but to allow them to function as semi-automatic or automatic weapons. That does not change the designated “Caliber” of the weapon. If every special purpose load not generally used in weapons without some other attachment, such as simunition, grenade launching blanks, etc. were give a special caliber, there would be no common descriptive language for conversations about ammunition among people who use it or collect it. It would be so complex. Further, the Simunition factory designation for their 9 mm cartridges is “9 x 19 mm.” That is the 9 mm Parabellum (I won’t even get into the Glisenti, etc., that in my view, only had a separate name because of designer’s or national egos) cartridge. The “FX” is not a description of the caliber. Simunition loadings for other purposes (Close Quarter Training, etc.) carry a different letter-designation, because they are a different type of cartridge.

This is my opinion, backed by the terminology in the manufacturer’s own catalogs, and frankly, nothing said so far will change my mind. Each one certainly has a right to their own opinion, but in regard to the difference between a caliber and a cartridge-type designation, in my mind it is clear which is which. As to the catalog page link given above, it is all well and good to pick out that page, but then we have to assume that their other three or four types with different initials (I already have shown those) in the very same catalog must always constitute a different “caliber.” I don’t agree with that and never will.

John Moss

Dear John,

Let’s do it from the beginning.

  1. The caliber of marking cartridges must necessarily be different from the caliber of combat cartridges.

  2. Replacing the barrel of combat pistols for firing marking cartridges is required, first of all, to avoid accidental loading and firing combat cartridge. This may not be necessary to provide the functioning of the reloading mechanism. When firing Simunition marking cartridges, the functioning of the reloading mechanism is provided by increasing the length of the cartridge case. This is the main and exclusive feature of Simunition marking cartridges.
    I myself fired Simunition marking cartridges using original combat pistols, at that the reloading mechanism was functioning normally.

  3. Two different caliber cartridges can not have the same designation.

  4. The company Simunition developed several new calibers of marking cartridges:

  • 9 mm FX caliber cartridge for pistols;
  • 38/357 FX caliber cartridge for revolvers;
  • 5.56 mm FX caliber cartridge for long rifled weapons.
    The first two calibers are introduced in the C.I.P. Tables.
  1. Indeed, for the manufacture of 9 mm FX caliber cartridge, a shortened cartridge case of 9 mm Luger (9 x 19) caliber cartridge is used. But these are two different calibers of cartridges.

Mikhail

This will be my last response on this thread, as neither of us can convince the other of his point of view, and it must be quite boring for those not that interested in the myriad of variations of the 9 x 19 mm cartridge, precisely the caliber designation assigned these Simunition marker AND OTHER TYPES made by them, which you are ignoring. I am well aware of the function of these cartridges - I have some 30 specimen variations in my own collection, as well as one inch thick of material on this ammunition in my library. My collection includes a fired case to show its increased length upon firing, where the two-piece case acts like a short-stroke piston to operation the mechanism of self-loading weapons.

It is clear to both of us that the bullet diameter was reduced for safety reasons that I need not revisit here. The oriignal bullet diameter of the Simunition 9 x 19 mm, cartridge type FX, was approx. 8.78 mm, just measured from a specimen with a high-quality digital caliper. The collar on this two-piece case is, by the way, made of steel, not plastic like all later models. Case length is 19.42 mm, slightly longer than the length designated by Simunition in their catalog designation of the cartridges, perhaps an early and continuing safety measure, before they applied a plastic collar with a smaller diameter bullet, approximately 6.92 mm in diameter. The plastic-collar ammunition has approximately the same case length as the initial version with steel collar.

Question - if the caliber designated by the manufacturer as 9 x 19 is not the full caliber designation, and you feel FX is part of the caliber designation rather than a description of the cartridge type (among various other types they manufacture, including even conventional Frangible 9 x 19 mm cartridges), than why is the designation of the second and finalized type not “7mm FX,” since great importance in the designation of the diameter of the projectile seems to be stressed here? The early version, therefore, should have been designation as the 8.7 mm FX, again according to beliefs expressed here.

As C.I.P. Tables, they are free to call a cartridge anything they want. They are not an organization with which I am particularly impressed, an opinion that has been expressed to me as well by several European ammunition specialists.

You are absolutely correct that a 9 mm shortened case was used, but it is a composite case, where the collar forms the upper part of the case, as well as functioning as a short-stroke piston. We are all well familiar with other composite case types. In truth, this two piece case is longer than a normal 9 mm case, as mentioned above.

If your argument about caliber designation is correct, then we must accept that the factory that designed and manufactured this ammunition, and refers to all of the various types as 9 x 19 followed by the initials expressing the specific TYPE of the cartridge, were incorrect in that designation. Since those cartridges with the 9 x 19 mm designation are specifically made to be used with 9 x 19 mm Pistols and Machine Pistols, fitted with a conversion kit for safety reasons, I do NOT believe that the manufacturer was incorrect.

I will continue to classify these rounds as 9 mm LUGER (Parabellum) types, even though I have a moderately fair collection of all calibers of cartridges, not just 9 x 19 mm, so could classify them as anything else I believed was correct, and would not lose them out of my collection.

Others are, of course, free to classify them as they wish.

Again, I see no point in continuing this disagreement over a minor point of classification, in deference to the other members of the Forum who likely find this discussion of no interest at all. I regret starting it, in truth.

John M.

John
I for one, agree with with you. These are for training in the use of the 9x19 pistol. That they are of a different physical size and need the pistol to be modified to function, is important but the pistol is still an original 9x19 Para. / Luger clambering (or 5,56x45, or .38/.357) and will still be once the conversion is removed.

Writer
You too are correct these are of a different size and can not be used in a firearm without modification.

But as a number of different case size modifications have been done by the large number of companies who over the years have built these various training rounds where a firearm modification is needed & it might only be a smaller bolt face, are they truly a different “case type” or are they a special loading for a specific firearm.
We could even consider the British Black Powder, Nitro for Black and full Nitro loads to be two or three different case types because although the cases measures the same, one is not only dangerous to shoot in the other (Nitro in BP) but the sight will need to be changed & possibly the barrels would need to be re-regulated

Personally I log these training rounds in the collection under the caliber firearm they are to be used with. But the British are two different case types. Because they are not interchangeable in the original firearms, and any modification would require a huge expense.

Dear forum members,

I am ready to continue the discussion if it is interesting for the forum members.

It is necessary to answer a few simple questions.

  1. What determines the caliber of weapons? Answer: The caliber of weapons is determined by the combination of dimensions of the chamber and barrel channel.

  2. What is the initial caliber of a combat pistol? Answer: Caliber 9 mm Luger (9 x 19).

  3. What is the caliber of a pistol after replacing the barrel? Answer: Caliber 9 mm FX.

  4. Can be used a pistol for firing 9 mm Luger caliber cartridges after replacing the barrel? Answer: No, it’s not possible, the caliber has changed.

  5. What is the caliber of marking cartridges? Answer: The caliber of marking cartridges was and always will be 9 mm FX.

What in these questions and in these answers can cause doubts?

Probably, the approach to the formation of a collection of cartridges in relation to marking cartridges should be reconsidered.

Mikhail

It is true that the 9 mm FX cartridge is based on the dimensions of the 9 mm Parabellum/Luger cartridge -in its prototype form even had a 9 mm diameter projectile-, and also that it was a cartridge designed for conversion barrel kits adapted to 9 mm Parabellum caliber pistols and submachine guns, but as early as 1990 it was adapted to conversion barrels adapted to .45 Auto pistols, followed along the years by kits made for .40 S&W, .357 SIG and 5.56 x 45 caliber guns (the latter not using the 5.56 mm FX variant).

So, in my opinion, it was born as a cartridge for 9 mm Parabellum caliber guns, but soon became a unique caliber meant for guns of different calibers. Also, there are pistols that were made to handle the 9 mm FX cartridge exclusively, so it is not longer a cartridge unique to conversion kits either.

Regards,

Fede

What if it is called like all other cartridges, by caliber and case length: 7x19?

The “7mm” I took only as an average, one may establish the true caliber (even aksing back to Simunition/IVI) and then add “x19”.

Dear forum members,

During our discussion, two important terms were mentioned:

  • the caliber of the cartridge;
  • designation of the caliber of the cartridge.

I am sure that understanding these terms is very important for cartridges collectors.

The caliber of the cartridge is a combination of external dimensions of the cartridge determining the possibility of using the cartridge for firing weapons of the appropriate caliber.

The designation of the caliber of the cartridge is a full or abbreviated designation, containing abbreviations, numeric, alphabetic and text designations and abbreviations. The dimensions in the designations of the calibers of the cartridges can be specified in the metric or inch system. Designations of calibers of individual kinds of cartridges are based on established traditions. There are no uniform principles for the assignment of designations to calibers of cartridges.

For bullet cartridges for rifled weapons, the designation of caliber (usually, but not necessarily) contains the approximate diameter of the bullet. For example, 9 mm Luger (9 x 19).

But how to determine the caliber of the cartridge for rifled weapons that do not contain bullet? This refers to the main part of special-purpose cartridges, including blank cartridges, marking cartridges, etc. Marking cartridges do not contain a bullet; the projectile of marking cartridges represents a capsule with a coloring substance.

In this case, the caliber of the cartridge is determined by the caliber of bullet cartridge using the same cartridge case. Thus, the caliber of marking cartridge based on the cartridge case for 9 mm Luger (9 x 19) caliber cartridge should be considered as 9 mm caliber. In order to distinguish the caliber of this cartridge from the calibers of other 9 mm caliber cartridges, additional letters, words, abbreviations, and so on are needed. In this case, the manufacturer assigned it the designation 9 mm FX.

For example, in 2008, I developed a rubber bullet pistol cartridge with using the cartridge case for 45 Auto caliber cartridges and assigned it the designation 45 Rubber. I could assign any designation caliber, but I liked exactly that.

Mikhail

The two meanings of the word caliber are indeed frustrating.
In theory, we have a standardized word for “designation of the caliber of the cartridge” (like 7.62 x 51), which is “Munitionsart” in German, “type of ammunition” in English and “type de munition” or “catégorie de munition” in French. At least that is what a German field manual on terminology said about 10 years ago.
Alas, nearly everyone continues using caliber.

Writer, You provided the answer at the end of your last post. The developer, or more often, the marketing department of the firm that the developer works for assigns the name, like the 9mm FX which is not truly a 9mm as was pointed out above. Other organizations like the military can assign another name that matches their criteria. In the end, all are valid names of the cartridge when used on one context or another.

Lew