Turkish 11mm Gras


#1

I have just acquired an 11mm Gras with a Turkish headstamp - at 12 o’clock is the classic star between the two crescent moons and at 6 o’clock is the date which I think translates to 1915. I can post a photograph in the next day or two if it’s of any interest. I have trawled the internet and have been through the few books that I have but I cannot find any reference to Turkey ever having used this calibre. Can anybody provide any information regarding Turkey’s use of this cartridge?


#2

In the book « Cartridges of the Gras system » (P.Mention, C.Ramio, ISBN 0-939683-02-4), they speak about the Turkish existence of two markings of 1915 (impressed headstamp et raised headstamp on the bevel).
Thank you for post a photo of the headstamp and the cartridge.


#3

Of course the pictures are of great interest to me, so please post them when you’re able to do so!
Unfortunately, I’ve never heard of Turkish Gras, so I cannot add any info, but I’m sure the pictures will clear this matter.

Cheers!
Ivo


#4

Here are the photos as promised; the first shows the round in question stood between two other 11mm Gras cartridges for comparison.
The second is of it’s headstamp.


#5

Beautiful !
Ps: turn the headtamps of 180 °


#6

[quote=“pierrejean”]Beautiful !
Ps: turn the headtamps of 180 °[/quote]

Ah…right! Thank you pierrejean.


#7

Does anybody have any information at all on this cartridge…DocAV?


#8

Jim, a pausible explanation is that this Turkish catridge was made for Gras rifles captured to Greece after conflicts like the Thirty Days’ War (1897) and the Balkan Wars (1912-13).


#9

Thanks Fede, that sounds quite possible…and is more of an idea than I had managed to come up with!


#10

Interestingly, there’s a Greek counterpart of this cartridge made for Turkish captured weapons: a 7.65 x 54 mm Mauser headstamped E EΠΚ Σ 1915. Guess it would have been easier to return each other’s weapons!


#11

IN Fact, in 1946-50, they did exactly that…Turkey swapped a large quantity of 6,5MS ammo to Greece in exchange for Captured German 7,9mm ammo
(the 6,5 had been captured during the Greek-Turkish War of 1920-21.).
The “swapped” german 7,9 ammo came onto the Sur[plus market early in 2000s,
( it was mostly Pre-War and 1940 production, Brass and early plated steel cased ammo, in 15 rd.packs/300 rd. “Battlepacks” with 1940 “repack” and “Inspection” markings. The Outsides of the crates had British and Italian markings as well. Probably ammo used in the 1941 German Occupation of Greece, and then remained in stock there until the Liberation of Greece, 1944…

regards,
Doc AV

PS< I have no info on the use of Gras rifles by the Turks, but going on how they utilised other BP rifles ( Peabody, Sniders, M87 Mausers) the Gras rifles were used by Guards and local Police in far flung outposts of the Ottoman Empire, and also as “Bribes” for Arab tribesmen in Mesopotamia and Arabia.