U.S. Gun / ammo Control Panic


#1

I’m still a shooter so I spend more time on the Guns 'n Shootin Forums than I do on IAA. If those other forums are any indication, gun owners and shooters are in full panic mode. Stockpiling ammo, buying guns and magazines, hoarding, prepping for a civil war, seem to be the order of the day.

Pleas for calm are met with derision. There hasn’t been a single piece of legislation introduced that I know of, and I haven’t seen even a reference to ammunition. Those guys will have used up all of their energy in advance of something actually being proposed.

I’m old enough now that whatever happens will have little effect on me. You younger guys need to be aware but, good Lord, let’s wait until something actually happens.

End of Sunday sermon.

Ray


#2

Ray, I think the big concern ammo-wise is if some form of storage/possession limit on rounds is enacted.
Nothing proposed yet, but we, as an organized and interested group, should keep our eyes open for any legislation that might affect our hobby.


#3

Two? days ago I got a letter from the NRA about the proposed fienstein gun - assault weapon ban she is apparently going to submit on Jan. 3rd.
any one wants to see it I’ll forward but need it to be addressed to my e-mail & not as a PM as I’m not on the home computer.

JohnnyC is correct noting about noting ammo proposed as yet (in it) & that we probably only have to wait for it, because that ought to be next after they figure it out, that all the laws have been already passed effecting these so-called (by some) weapons of mass destruction. Other than her ideas. Complete ban unless you pay a $200 fee & then you can keep it till you die but then it has to be destroyed. Somehow she equates these to be the same as machine guns. Who-da thought.

She also bans a lot of magazines, which may well effect those of us who also collect feed systems. Plus a number of guns with features such as a hand-guard handle (a magazine that extends below the weapons profile is considered as such)

Anyhow nothing about safeguarding us from crazies or criminals in it so not to worry, the violence will continue.

Matt & Aaron, if this don’t fit just delete it. not a problem.

Happy new year


#4

I have heard several newscasters, mostly local, comment to the effect that “Why does anyone need more than 1 box (20 rounds) of rifle cartridges or 50 rounds of pistol cartridges. Certainly, if your hunting, you don’t need more than that!!”. Of course, most of these people have probably never shot a gun in their life. Nor do they understand that just target shooting is fun. I can remember many, many days back in nthe '60’s when my brother and I would shoot a whole carton of 500 .22’s EACH in an afternoon of just plinking at tin cans.

They hear the police say “That guy had a whole case of 1000 rounds” thus the guy must be a terrorist. Of course the newscasters think that is an extreme amount of ammunition. They don’t realize that a 1000 rounds is just the standard case of cartridges and is usually the least expensive way to buy ammo if you do any amount of shooting at all.

The anti-gunners have learned a long time ago that banning or restricting guns is difficult and more and more, they are trying to attack ammo sales as a back door way of attacking guns.


#5

Talking about anything as it relates to cartridge collecting is fine in the forum, and legislation affecting ammunition possession, storage, shipment, or restrictions on types of, or abilities of ammunition certainly fits the bill.

I for one don’t see how anything could get through the House since there are a fair number of democrats who are against gun/ammo control of any relevance including my northern Maine district’s Rep. Michaud (one of the few democrats to have an “A” rating from the NRA).

Having executive orders and certain governmental organizations re-evaluating their interpretations of existing laws to further restrict ammunition is another matter, and they could seriously hamper things in terms of shipping, lead-content, hazmat issues, destructive-device interpretation, and also redefining what constitutes things like “importation”, “manufacturing”, or “dealer”. A classic example would be when on Feb 2nd, 1994, ATF director John W Magaw and ATF Clinton-era bureaucrat Terry L Cates decided to take on 7,62x39 and .308 steel core ammunition and absurdly define it as “pistol-caliber armor piercing” so as to have it fall under the auspices of the 1986 federal law. They did this by pointing out that there were in existence some “pistols” from the likes of Olympic Arms which were registered and sold as pistols, and which could fire the 2 calibers in question. This was done without congressional action or approval, and did not require any and meant that all imports of inexpensive Chinese and other cheap 7.62x39 ammo with steel cores intended for the commercial civilian market had to cease (on a commercial importation level).

The effect of this was predictable with Ex-post-facto allowing all existing millions of rds to remain legal, and it did absolutely nothing other than to make such ammunition progressively more expensive over time, and it certainly did nothing to dissuade 2 shooters from using this very type of ammo in the North Hollywood bank shootout of 1997. Ironically, by using FMJ steel-core ammo from their AK’s, they saved the lives of all whom they shot (not one person died), but if they had used less “objectionable” ammo with hunting style soft points, hollow points, or even frangibles, then they would have killed many due to damage caused by such projectiles above & beyond FMJ penetrators which tend tend to not fragment or expand in this caliber type.

As a collector, one might consider some possible future restrictions with such cartridge / munition types as:

37mm / 26.5mm loads
Subsonic loads meant for use with silencers
Any flechette or flame type incendiary load
Any tracer
Any penetrator
.50BMG of any type
5.56 M855 penetrator type loads
Anything capable of over 1500 fps fired from a 5" barrel
Anything that is marked or marketed for “law enforcement use only” as can be bought frequently online
Any contract overrun from domestic manufacturers that was originally intended to fill a government contract (Federal & Winchester white boxes)
Any government surplus
Multiball loads
Anything that is already illegal in California or Washington D.C.
Bringing ammo in from outside of the country

You might think that it is unwise to print a list like this, but rest assured - the anti gun / anti-ammo elements already have volumes upon volumes of legislation already written and printed, ready to inject into congress when the opportunity presents itself. If the house were Democrat controlled then it certainly all would be.

All that being said, I would give at least 2 to 1 odds against anything of any real relevance actually happening as far as ammunition possession goes. Still, a chance remains, now more so than in previous years since the public opinion polls always sway in favor of more restriction after a tragedy.

I would also caution any collector here from doing what happens on so many gun forums in terms of hyper-criticism of the BATFE. Although I point out an example of what this agency can and has done, the agency is vast and can by no means be defined entirely by the actions of a few presidentially-appointed executives or bureaucrats over time. The BATFE has always been relatively quite good to the IAA.


#6

I read that Sen. Feinstein has possibly backed off filing her bill on Jan 3 as she has been saying. I believe the POTUS and Sen. Reid have taken the position that the Biden Commission needs to submit it’s finding before any decisions are made about proposing new legislation. If the Biden report does not mention ammunition restrictions, that issue could be put on the back burner. OTOH . . .

And, of course, there are a few other minor matters to take care of first, such as tax increases, spending cuts, a budget!!

Ray


#7

Matt–Speaking of BATFE, it should be pointed out that not only do they read this forum, but several agents are active IAA members.


#8

Indeed, and as is the usual case, the agents are reasonable people, but the occasional presidential appointee can change many things through executive orders.


#9

Interesting point. Would any of those officers care to chime in?


#10

[quote=“Wendigo”]
Interesting point. Would any of those officers care to chime in?[/quote]
I don’t believe any of them can speak on behalf of the BATFE in here on speculative matters like this, and most probably would not want to align themselves one way or the other, aside from clarifying the extent of existing laws. We had a TSA agent at the last two SLICS shows and he did some explaining for all who had questions. An ATF agent would be nice in that same sense at the show.


#11

I am surprised at comments indicating no ammunition laws have been put forth yet. According to the Hartford Courant, two Democratic (who else?) state legislators have suggested a 50% tax on ammunition - yes, 50%. Obviously, they don’t take there oath of office seriously, at least the part of defending the Constitution of the United States, where I believe the concept of “Prohibition through Taxation is banned.” One of the under-lying causes of the American Revolution (and the main cause of the Boston Tea Party incident) were attempts by the Crown to basically prohibit certain aspects of trade in specific products through the imposition of impossibly high taxes. That was more a case of protecting their own trade interests above those of Colonial businessmen in those days, then a case of imposing governmental tyranny on the American people, as is the case with the current suggestions of these laws and similar, however, although the end effect is the same.

Ammunition laws running a spectrum of attempts at prohibition or limitations on ammunition so severe as amounting to near-prohibition have already been suggested in California and elsewhere. I don’t believe any have been enacted as of yet, but that is only a matter of time.


#12

I think it very likely that some legislation will be proposed regarding any or all of: an ammunition “violence” tax (which could include reloading components), an ammunition possession limit, limits on purchase or possession of ammunition having “Killer” (expanding) bullets, no mail order/internet sales of ammunition, ban on ammunition imports, a reloading permit, banning of certain types of “Military” ammunition (such as 9mm and 5.56mm), and the serializing of ammunition. Plus don’t forget what damage EPA, DOT, and OSHA could do with new regulations regarding manufacture, transportation, storage, and use of ammunition in civilian commerce. Small arms ranges could easily be banned on environmental grounds. I hope none of that happens, but I won’t be surprised if it does. Ammunition may be an easier and more effective target than weapons. Don’t forget what’s going on at the UN.


#13

In the past, several sorts of tax on ammunition have been proposed but none actually went very far.

They have also proposed “arsenal licenses” for anyone with over x number of guns or xx rounds of ammunition, with “safe storage” requirements, license fees, subject to inspection, etc.

Count on EVERY single wet dream from the gun banners to be included in Feinstein’s bill, and/or Biden’s report. They will probably hope that at least some of it gets passed, and if the gutlessness of many Republicans on other issues is any indicator, eventual “compromises” will result in some incremental infringement on gun and ammunition rights.

Every U.S. member of IAA should be a member of the NRA as well. If you are not a member already, sign up NOW. Politicians respect power, and one of the key indicators is how large and how fast the NRA grows right now. If already a member, upgrade your memberships level. Sign up your wife and kids. Heck, sign up your hunting dog or lazy cat as well.

Weigh in on your local newspaper forums and editorial pages to present a pro-freedom view and to (attempt) education of the many ignorant and incorrect statements made about guns, ammunition and their owners.

The next 100 days will be a bitter struggle, and we cannot wait and watch, but must engage as soon as possible to do whatever we can. Otherwise we lose our rights, and freedom, and ammunition.


#14

Don’t forget the CPSC and the TSA, which through presidentially appointed executives could suddenly find themselves enforcing some outlandish transport and civilian access regulations based on re-interpretation of some long forgotten law about interstate commerce.


#15

Several italian shooters /collectors and me spent some time during the last weeks posting comments on online articles about “american and guns”. Most people here thinks that in the US you can buy bombs and full automatic weapons as “buying sandwiches”. We like to defend our american friends.

I read about some ban or limits about ammo in the US on italian newspapers. Here we have limits about ammo quantity that can be stored at home and bought.

Anyway I think that, although proposed, no hard bans will be approved in the US. Pro gun guys are still fairly common even in US Congress. Italian government and even GUNMAKERS ASSOCIATIONS are undoubtely anti gun or fight against the right of buy and use some kind of weapons ( we had some troubles about “semiauto rifles that resemble a full auto firearm”) but they have to follow UE prescriptions that are more indulgent.

Many items described in DK’s list are already illegal in Italy. Possession of even fired NATO small caliber or artillery cases is illegal.
Obviously a 20 mm case is absolutely non dangerous and hardly reloadable, and a 7,62 NATO case is exactly the same as a 308 Win case, but laws are often stupid.


#16

Two days after the horrific school killings in Conn. I saw two members of the national legislative body who had NRA A+ ratings talk about the “need for more gun control”. So saying we are safe because of the house being Republican, doesn’t quite jell to me. These are politicians who are often more worried about retaining their ‘power’ then doing the right thing. ANY one of them is liable to fold under media driven hype if they start getting phone calls from people who believe that guns do all these bad things but somehow haven’t quite realized that someone has to actually hold the gun to make it work. A typical democrat’s cause = effect thought pattern brain at work. However, please notice I said typical, as I’m sure there are some Democrats who are cartridge collectors and shooters, & thus good guys.

We need our guns if for no other reason but to have ammunition makers make ammunition for these new & different guns. So adding more to our collections & to continue to develop new technology with the needed funding gun sales supports. I won’t say anything about the right to defend ourselves, our 2nd amendment rights, target shooting, or hunting.

JohnS is 100% correct we all need to be NRA members.

Apparently in San Antonio TX some short time ago some nutter went into a restaurant to kill his former girl friend, the patrons fled to a next-door cinema to escape, he followed them & when the shooting started there, was himself killed by an off-duty female sheriff. Apparently this did make the local news but none of the national media picked up the story, as evidently guns can’t be shown to be useful or needed in today’s world.

About the 1000 round comments, before the bridge by-passing the Hover dam was built if we went to the LV show or the CdA ID show we either had to cross the dam or go MANY, many miles out of our way. I was asked to submit to a search twice & learned some bean-counter set a 1000 round limit of ammo as legal to go over the dam. So it would seem a brick of 22 shorts was the limit, but 999 rounds of 105’s was no problem.
PS Made it through both times.


#17

pete,
please note that i wrote about HARD bans. I am pretty sure that possible new laws about gun/ammo control would be far less restrictive than those proposed in these days, at least in the US

At least one time per month italian politicians propose illogical and ultra restrictive laws about guns. Obviously 99,99 % of these laws are not approved by the parliament.


#18

I agree that the NRA and NAGR are the only things left between us and severe ammo and gun restrictions. Join and contribute, or kiss collecting as we know it today good bye within the next 5 - 10 years. Keep in mind that the next nut-job is already thinking about how he can out do the last one. The response to this tragic event has to take the long haul into account, not getting by this one, or the next. There will be more until the root cause is addressed, mental health.

Don’t forget that you can also write your Govenor, House, Senate, the VP and President as an individual. Obama does not have to worry about re-election, but the people in the house and senate sure do. We cannot not afford to be the silent majority anymore.


#19

Howdy Pivi
The gun laws in the US are already very restrictive controls about guns & purchasing. Perhaps not as restrictive as you deal with. But why do we need more gun control when the problem is controlling the crazies from lying or stealing to obtain them? Shouldn’t the laws be aimed more toward that factor then just banning guns?

Buy a gun in the US & see what you have to do. The purchase form now even asks what ethnicity you are. How does that matter? Should you be turned down or given permission because your skin is pink, brown or orange?

By the way my comments above (that you replied to) were not addressed to your previous comments about Italian gun control. I only know certain items were banned there & have been since WW II. (I once got stopped (actually two times) going over the Brenner Pass from Austria with German made steel cased 9 Para’s in my jeans. They didn’t find them but I was “sweating bullets”).

keep your powder dry


#20

Due to the media, guns in the USA have been a popular topic of discussion here in the UK recently. I try and stay out of it, as most people here know absolutely nothing about it. Of course this means that discussing or arguing with them is a pointless exercise. For example, many of them think that “machine guns” are available to the public from Wal-Mart etc.

The public here in the UK have a very negative opinion of guns and gun owners. However, pick up any magazine or newspaper and there are adverts for films and computer games showing characters posing with all kinds of firearms. Also, turn on the TV and flick through the channels and it won’t take long before you see guns being used. This is never mentioned and is seen as perfectly acceptable.