Umc box date


#1

Can anybody date this box?
Headstamp on the cartridge is U.M.C. .44 C.F.W.



451kr.


#2

451KR–That is a VERY interesting box. I would date it 1910 or 1911. Note that the headstamp shown on the cartridge on the cover is REM-UMC but the address is Union Metallic Cartridge Co., NOT the combined names. The merger officially took place in Jan. 1911. However, both companies had been working with each other for some time before 1911. Also note that this is the loading for the .44 Colt Lightning Magazine Rifle, not the standard .44 W.C.F., I am surprised the headstamp drawing does not say U.M.C. .44 C.L.M.R. One more oddity; the box top cartridge is a SMOKELESS cartridge, but the loading is a BLACK POWDER Load. I am also surprised that the actual cartridges are U.M.C., not REM-UMC. As I said, an interesting box.


#3

I agree, what an unusual box with all of those odd characteristics that Ron pointed out. That REM-UMC headstamped smokeless cartridge on a UMC black powder box is most peculiar. I can’t imagine why or how that could occur. Usually, for these transition period boxes, the cartridges in the box have the REM-UMC headstamp, but the address on the label and the headstamp illustrated on the label are both UMC. This would be a logical occurrence as the company uses up old pacaging stock. But would they waste resources designing and printing this label. That the label indicates the cartridges are for the .44 Winchester while the end label says they are for Colts Lightning rifle and Frontier revolver just makes it all the more confounding.

Perhaps 451kr has been playing around with his graphics software in preparation for April Fools Day.


#4

Ron,

Thanks for the information.

Guy,
I didnt playing around with graphics. This is a original box and opened by the previous owner, its a good friend off me.
He told me that this box was more that 50 years in his collection.
It`s not my collection field therefore my question.

451kr.


#5

Above the signature line, “Union Metallic Cartridge Company” in script, does this look like the typical terminology used 100 or so years ago…? It looks more “modern” to me…

Randy


#6

Here’s what the more commonly encountered box looks like. The wording of the statement on the side above the company signature on this box is what is typically seen. The cartridges in this box have the U.M.C. .44-40 headstamp, the same as is shown on the cartridge illustrated on the label. It would be interesting to see what the guarantee label on the bottom of the above box looks like.


#7

Guy,

The bottom label

451kr.


#8

451kr–Now we know one more thing about your box. It is the EXPORT box by U.M.C., as can be told by the guarantee in Spanish, not the domestic U.S. box.


#9

Thanks 451kr. Can you read what is written in script below the Spanish portion of the guarantee? Is it Union Metallic Cartridge Co. in Spanish??


#10

Guy,
Im sorry cant read it.
When was the cartridge name chanced from .44cal to .44-40

451kr.


#11

It has been called a lot of names, which were covered in a previous thread on this board, but I believe the most common were .44 Winchester or Winchester Center Fire (or WCF), and .44-40. Incidently, the headstamp on yours is a little less common than the one on mine; the C.F.W on yours is for center fire Winchester.

Now that we know this box was produced for export, does anyone know if the 44 C.F.W. headstamp was also used only for export?


#12

The “hand written” signature line on the side is unlike any other UMC box I’ve seen, & looks like a poor copy. Compare the “handwriting” with the one shown on the GuyHilderbrand box. Notice both top and side used the same ‘signature’. and I’ve not seen it used any other variation (other than a change in size)

Also on the front, the nicely curved “The Union Metallic Cartridge Co.” line is even to the labels border and the bottom and top plane of the letters are even on Guy’s but is not so on the other.

I also agree with 30army the terminology is modern.

Another point is that a UMC box with a " REM-UMC - the caliber - " headstamp, which was used on circa 1961 Mexican (Cartuchos Deportivos de Mexico) manufacture or on earlier export ammunition which had a curved (not a short dash) line in the actual headstamp doesn’t just seem right.

I don’t see a overlapping seam in the side label, but do on Guy’s.

That it would be labeled on one end for a .44 Cal. and the other a New Lighting Magazine rifle & Frontier revolver but no mention of Colt & showing the Winchester name only on the top, but with the CFW cartridge headstamp & not calling it W.C.F. on the end, just “Cal.” is also strange.

OK now after all that, I rest.


#13

From the various hues of green the 451kr box has been exposed to either sun, heat or chemicals.
Wording is very odd.

Gourd


#14

Here are some other details of my box. I’d be interested in seeing a few shots of the inside of the bottom half of the 451kr box and a side shot with the top removed to see how it is constructed, as well as how the inside of the bottom looks after 100 years of those lead bullets pressing down on it. The way the sides of the top portion bow out when the box is closed suggests to me that the bottom is not constructed like a typical half split box, with the top and bottom halves constructed identically, with the addition of the inner liner in the bottom half over which the top portion fits. There are obvious construction differences in the tops of the two boxes, especially the inside corners.


#15

I just went through all of my UMC boxes (100+) and, focusing on the cross of the “t” in “Metallic” and “Cartridges” in the signature, I didn’t find a single example with the script on the 451kr box. There is some very slight variation in that some have a tiny space between the upright and the cross on the first “t” as on Guy’s box while on most, the cross sits just atop the upright. This does not include any with the English/Spanish guarantee, so that could be a different variation, but markedly so.


#16

Guy,
Inside of box.

451kr.


#17

The bottom of the box appears to be constructed properly, so I guess it is just the labels that might be suspect.