I just acquired this un-headstamped 7.63x25mm Mauser round, with a three stab neck crimp and domed brass primer. It looks Japanese to me but I do not know. If anyone has any ideas I’d appreciate their input.
Some information in a previous thread:
I acquired a pair of 7.63 Mauser cartridges exactly like yours and was asking here about them last year sometime. I think the consensus is that they’re Italian if the don’t meet all the criteria for being Japanese?
It is possible it is Chinese. I have a typical Chinese brass clip that came with a Chinese C-96. The clip has 9 unheadstamped cartridges. One has a GM color bullet and CM crimps like yours. The rest have CN color bullets. One has a ring crimp and the others have no CM crimps. Lots of variations in Chinese 7.63M ammo.
In my opinion these were made by Fiocchi. Here is a previous thread showing the same cartridges and my opinion about them.
As Brian pointed out, the key to identification of this cartridge is the
bullet. If it is not magnetic, then I would agree with Fede that the
rounds are Italian of the same make as those found in the Sequoia
boxes (I have full boxes with both the SEQUOIA San Francisco (California USA)
label and with the original label from Italy). If the bullet is magnetic, it is likely
Japanese, although my Japanese round has a slightly different ogive than it
appears your pictured round has, and the bullet jacket is greyer in color - not
quite so shiny. The latter could be due to different conditions of storage or
I have in my collection of unheadstamped Mausers about 6 or 7 rounds that “fit” the description of Japanese rounds, but are all a bit different. I keep them all as “possibles”; at least one is bound to actually be Japanese! I have been told that boxes exist, but I have never seen one.
Jon - do you mean that you have six or seven unheadstamped
.30 Mauser with CNCS bullets, three-stab neck crimps, etc.?
While hard to deal with in photographs, the Japanese 7.63 Mauser and
7.65 Para are not too hard to spot, although it is much harder to define
in words why. The head, primarily the primer, I suppose, just has a different
“look” to it. I know that is nebulous, but as I said, it is hard to describe in words.
Any chance you can get a picture posted of the Japanese cartridges next to the Italian cartridges? In “.30 Mauser” and the 7.65 Para? That would be great.
The bullet is non-magnetic, therefore not Japanese. Fede, any idea when Fiocci produced these?
I don’t know th exact date, but Sequoia Importing Co. was active between the 1920’s and 1941. Below you can see an ad from 1930.
On 7.65 Para/.30 Luger, I assume my nonmagnetic CN soft point is something Sequoia imported. (Italian.) Do you know if they imported truncated CN bullets also. Or would that be a different maker?
Also, the nhs CNCS 7.65 Para, with 3 stab and 4 stab bullet crimps. Are they both Japanese?
I was hoping for head pictures to shed some light, but they are very similar.
I do not have a good collection in 7.65.
Dan: DWM made hollow point bullets in various calibers of cupro-nickel, including (per R.K. Wilson), 7.63 m/m Mauser. Possibly they also made soft nose bullets of CN? Jack
I think I have some, with DM or DWM headstamps. These unheadstamped ones are harder to track down. But it could be the same maker.
Unheadstamped cartridges are made by many makers for many reasons.
Some are obvious from cartridge characteristics or box labels and box construction,
even if the labels are spurious. Others we may never know the real answer on. I only
know of one form of the Japanese 7.65 Para and 7.63 Mauser. While almost certainly
loaded in Japan, the magnetic bullets (CNCS) are unusual for Japanese handgun
ammunition, and I have always suspected they were purchased outside of Japan. The
two calibers use essentially the same bullet. If I ever had dupes of either, I would pull
them apart to compare the two bullets, Para and Mauser, to each other, and also look
at their construction.
Since the subject is identifying unheadstamped 7.63M cartridges I decided to add the clip of unheadstamped for your reference. Note the two on the left end have CM crimps. as well as the one on the right end of the clip. Only the bullet on the far right is magnetic. Note the primers which are both flat and rounded and both brass and copper color.
Of course I can’t guarantee these are all Chinese, but the clip with these rounds came from the a holster that held a GI bringback Chinese made C96. Their construction seems to be consistent with headstamped Chinese 7.63M rounds I have pictured at bottom. Note the round on the left may not be Chinese? The other three are all confirmed Chinese. from the right they are:
- 20th Arsenal
- Unknown Fake DWM headstamp (Fake Western headstamps are common on Chinese pistol ammuniiton)
- Hanyang Arsenal
The two rounds on the left have magnetic bullets.
Very nice, Lew. I’ve never seen the “H” headstamp before! Put me in your will!
John: One test that can be made on the unmarked 7.63 m/m and 7.65 m/m cartridges is total weight. The standard weight of the bullet for the former is 86 gr.; that of the latter 93 gr. It is possible variations in case weight could mask this disparity, but it might work. It may not prove of any assistance, but it could quell the urge to break the cartridges down. Jack
Jack - are you speaking of Japanese rounds? If so, where did you
find the respecitive bullet weights of the two case types?
Take a number LOL