Understanding the pre-NATO Cal .30 Light Rifle Cartridges

Was a tracer with the 47mm case ever made? I can find no record of any. If they do exist they must be a rare bird indeed. The earliest tracer I have is a T102 with the 49mm case.

Dittoes Phil, on everything you said. My earliest is an FA 48.


I was asked about one and I did a little digging. One sold in an old Buttwieler auction.


Any way to get a photo? It would most likely be an M1 or M2 bullet and the cannelure would have been located in the wrong place.

And, it would be very easy to make one.

I’d like to see some provenance.


If, and when, I get I actually see it I’ll post what I can. Do you know anything more about this round, other than what’s in the auction catalog?


I don’t have the catalog so don’t know what it said.

I think I summed up everything that I know about it, which is nothing. Never seen one, never seen a reference to one, never seen an FAT number for it.

I’d ask Bill Woodin if he has one, or seen one. He has one of every cartridge ever made and may have one.


I’ve not seen a tracer in a T65 case, but I do have a silver tipped API (confirmed by X-ray) in a T65 case (HS F A 46) with a nickel primer with an O in the center. My understanding is that the use of the “O” on the primer cup was used for a short time during the post-war period to indicate Remington primers sold as components for reloading. Apparently, FA purchased a quantity of these and used them in some of the early T65 development effort.

What’s the earliest Lake City seen on a pre-NATO cartridge? I’ve recently come across a ball round headstamped L C 52 - however, the cartridge is a reformed 30-06 with a M2 ball bullet and I don’t know if the round is a factory loading.



T65 cartridges with the Remington “0” primers are fairly common especially in those with the FA 46 headstamp. My understanding is the same as yours - that FA purchased some of the Remington primers to test against others, especially the P4.

My earliest pre-NATO LC case is 54. The same for the pre-NATO WCC.

The earliest NATO cases I have are FA and LC (+) 55. Except for the FN one headstamped FN (+) 54.


My earliest pre-NATO (non FA)

A.P. T93E1 R A 50 Aluminum case w/graphite coated body.
A.P. T93E2 L C 5 4
Tracer T102E2 L C 5 4

My earliest NATO

Ball M59 (+) 55 FA
Ball M59 (+) 55 LC
AP M61 (+) 55 LC
Tracer M62 (+) 55 LC
Dummy M63 (+) 55 FA
Rifle Grenade M64 (+) 55 FA

My earliest T102 Tracer is a FA 49 by the way

Some other hard to find (for me) pre-NATO:

FAT1E1 FA 50

FAT1E3 FA 53

I have only one of each. Do you guys have more? Wanna trade?


[quote]My earliest pre-NATO (non FA)

A.P. T93E1 R A 50 Aluminum case w/graphite coated body.[/quote]

I have the same Remington A.P. round but I’ve catalogued mine simply as ‘.30 Light Rifle Armour Piercing’ as I didn’t think Remington used the FA-T designation system. Or have I got that wrong…?

You may be correct. That’s just how it was discribed in Jim Tillinghast’s price list ,which is where I got it. Jim was usually petty good with his designations as a whole lot of his individual items came right out of the original boxes.

Does anyone know who made the early (47mm), unheadstamped aluminum cased rounds? In what time frame were they made?

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Dave E
Thanks for the link. Interesting thread, I don’t recall seeing it (so what’s new!) and yes I would like to see the rest of NATO Dave’s post if you have it available.

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These are the four aluminum cased rounds I have. The 49mm round has a crack running up the case about half and inch and through the head.

The AP bullet has a very light cannelure around the bullet, just visible in the picture.

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