Unidentified cartridges


#1

I wonder if the experienced members of this forum can help me identify two cartridges that have been kept in the unidentified group of my collection

The cartridge on the left measures: .303


#2

The one on the right could be the .22 Long Center fire, the dims you gave match the size given in CARTRIDGE CASES by Andersen. The one on the left is not in the book?? sorry. Vic


#3

I will try on the left one , may it possibly be a .303 adaptor, simplex variety??, the dims are close but all of the ones I have seen have KYNOCH headstamps!!


#4

The primer looks too modern to be an original British made .303 Adaptor. This COULD be one formed from another case type.


#5

The 7.7mm Bittner is a possibility for the larger round.
Calibre [actual] .303" Complete round length is 1" Rim Diameter is .390"
Case length is .665" Rimmed with lead projectile, but the projectile of ones I have seen is round to pointed.

The smaller round certainly looks like the 22 Rook Short [22-3-30]
also known as the 22 center fire short, compared my cartridge to your pictures and it seems to fit perfectly, primer and all.
Case length of short is .510" and the long is .750" actual measurements of my samples.
Terry.


#6

Nr. 1 is a plain headstamped normal .320. Short or long, as the dims from this caliber are very variable. Case lenghts for both (320 short: from 14,7mm /.580 to 18,29/.720) and (.320 long: from 16,51/.650 to 20,52mm/.808) exists. As it is without hs and bearing a new type of Boxerprimer, i suppose, its made in France by our all known friend Megret (to fool the authorithies, without hs), as this ammo is classified as ammo, class 4, for which a license is needed. He made up some ammo in very old looking boxes and giving them sometimes phony names on the outside. He made the same with the french 7,65MAS Petter long , as he renamed it on the case as an other (older) caliber…:-))

The second cartridge was allready properly identified.

The tought, Nr.1 could be a 7,7 Bittner is completely wrong, sorry. The Bittner has a rn-cncs Fullmetal-jacket and allways bears the hs RWS N


#7

Forensic, Yes you are correct, my guess was way off the mark with the Bittner.
I do not own a 7.7 Bittner round, but have seen two at auctions, a bit too pricey for me! and your comment made me check my notes, round to pointed jacketed projectile.
Looked at the sizes and remembered the projectile shape instead of being a bit more thorough.
Terry.


#8

[quote=“Terry”]
The smaller round certainly looks like the 22 Rook Short [22-3-30]
also known as the 22 center fire short, compared my cartridge to your pictures and it seems to fit perfectly, primer and all.
Case length of short is .510" and the long is .750" actual measurements of my samples.
Terry.[/quote]
Some months ago, another collector looking at this photos, suggested that this small cartridge could be the 5,6 x 13,5 R Velo-Dog Short Range. I also thought about the hypotheses of being the 22 Short CF, but the length of case (aprox, 10mm) is to short compared to the cartridge I have (aprox. 12,7mm) Once more the hawser could rely on both the accuracy of my measurements and the dimensional variations of the manufactures. Since you mentioned that you had a similar cartridge, what do you think about the hypnotises of the 5.6x13,5 Velo-Dog ?


#9

[quote=“Forensic”]Nr. 1 is a plain headstamped normal .320. Short or long, as the dims from this caliber are very variable. Case lenghts for both (320 short: from 14,7mm /.580 to 18,29/.720) and (.320 long: from 16,51/.650 to 20,52mm/.808) exists. As it is without hs and bearing a new type of Boxerprimer, i suppose, its made in France by our all known friend Megret (to fool the authorithies, without hs), as this ammo is classified as ammo, class 4, for which a license is needed. He made up some ammo in very old looking boxes and giving them sometimes phony names on the outside. He made the same with the french 7,65MAS Petter long , as he renamed it on the case as an other (older) caliber…:-))

The second cartridge was allready properly identified.

The tought, Nr.1 could be a 7,7 Bittner is completely wrong, sorry. The Bittner has a rn-cncs Fullmetal-jacket and allways bears the hs RWS N


#10

[quote=“vitor teixeira”][quote=“Terry”]
The smaller round certainly looks like the 22 Rook Short [22-3-30]
also known as the 22 center fire short, compared my cartridge to your pictures and it seems to fit perfectly, primer and all.
Case length of short is .510" and the long is .750" actual measurements of my samples.
Terry.[/quote]
Some months ago, another collector looking at this photos, suggested that this small cartridge could be the 5,6 x 13,5 R Velo-Dog Short Range. I also thought about the hypotheses of being the 22 Short CF, but the length of case (aprox, 10mm) is to short compared to the cartridge I have (aprox. 12,7mm) Once more the hawser could rely on both the accuracy of my measurements and the dimensional variations of the manufactures. Since you mentioned that you had a similar cartridge, what do you think about the hypnotises of the 5.6x13,5 Velo-Dog ?[/quote]
Hi Vitor,
that cartridges outside appearance and the primer does not look at all, like french manufacture. I have several (proven) ammo, with this style of base, all are from England, especially early Eley-manufacture.
So, your 6mm cartridge, maybe a"long" variety of the 22-short, or a short variation of the “long” one, produced by Eley.

It is in no way, a socalled 6mm (or 5,6mm) Velodog short, which I knew only with the bullet seated deep in a shorter Velodog case, as usual.
The cartridge, which is shown in Erlmeyer-Brandt as upper photo, isnt a Velodog-round, It is a own cartridge from Francotte (manufactured by SFM and RWS. maybe others) and called 6mm Francotte. So you can ommit that, in the latest issue of the EB-Buch, as a "Pistol-or Revolverround). It was for a Carbine and is in fact nothing else, as the .22 Winchester Rimfire transfered into a centerfire Version. Even the brass cases are copperwashed, to look similar to the original Winchester RF-Rounds.
I have an RWS box with this ammo in.
But, can you may give me more dimension (please in MM, my program doesnt work with inch :-)) ) on this small round? Than I can look a little bit more for a source to it…

Thx
Forensic

About Megret: I will write nothing (more) public about that…


#11

This actually demonstrates the importance of this forum to cartridges collectors. I had this specimen classified as the 5,6 5,6 x 13,5 R Velo-Dog Short ad so did the colleges collectors to whom I offered similar cartridges.
The dimensions in millimetres are: 5,63mm (bullet diameter) and 12,72 (case length).
I must alert to the fact that I am not very good taking measures with the calliper, so it could be a small margin of error.
Thanks


#12

Megret is a French dealer you can meet at the gun shows.
He sell ctges more for shooting than for collecting.
He made reproductions of old ctges for collectors and for shooters.
About the collectors ctges he is selling, some have his name on them, some none.
JP


#13

Vitor, I have had no time until now, but here is a scan of the short that is displayed in your picture and also the long, known as the 22 Rook Long
22 - 4 - 30 or 22 Centre Fire Long.
The cases on average are 1/2 inch and 3/4 inch respectively and the primers are the same in both rounds. The projectile is possibly a different weight or is seated a tiny bit deeper in Long, although this may have something to do with the chamber in the Rook Rifles designed for these cartridges.
Terry.