United States Cartridge Co. 7.62 x 54R Crate

Recently acquired; this U.S.C.Co. 7.62 x 54R crate from 1917.

I know the 3 characters between 191 and LOT No indicate “3-line”, the Russian designation of the cartridge. According to Google, the lowest line of text translates to “English Order”

The crate sides are marked identically.

The ends are identical, as well.

The 20 round boxes contained in the crate are marked on the front only.

The cartridge, headstamped U.S.C.Co. 17

My question is: Does “English Order” indicate that the British were middle men, so to speak, for Russian armament orders in the U S, as they were for other countries in the World War 1 years ?

Randy

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Yes, the British Gov’t acted as Buying Agent for Imperial Russia, and used JP Morgan in New York as their American Agents and Bankers.
The Ammunition etc was Paid in Gold Bullion transferred by Warship from Murmansk to London, and then to USA initially by Fast Liner ( initially Neutral), then Warship to avoid U-Boats.
The British paid for their own acquisitions the Same way.

The " Anglitski Zakaz" marking was found on Ammunition, Colt M1911 pistols, Colt M1914 Potato Diggers ( 7,62 Russ.) And probably the crates of Mosin Nagants ( the rifles or not marked).

Nice find…
Doc AV

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Great crate!
The 1891 Mosin Nagants made by both Remington and New England Westinghouse were marked with a cartouche on the buttstock with the “English Order” text in a circle.
image

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Mighty good box, Randy.
I have a question about “3 л.Б.” It means 3 line rifle, I think, but that would be “3 линейная Bинтовка” which would be “3 л.В.”. So is it a typo?

Vlad,
You certainly are much more the Russian language expert than I. I have no clue as to typo. Maybe Max can chime in here ?

Randy

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Randy, great box, thanks for sharing. “Б” is the initial of Боевой (Combat, i.e. “Ball”).

Regards,

Fede

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Fede, your Russian is better than mine, ja-ja-ja…

Here is a Western Cartridge Company packet with the same three characters.

Source: 7.62x54r.net

Randy

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Was that an empty crate, or was there goodies inside it?

Please see my original post.

Information on the Russian Inspectors at Western in 1916-7
may be found in Frost " Ammunition Manufacture", NRA Publications.
One of the Inspectors remained with Western after Revolution, and was Mentor to Frost in 1934, when Frost was employed by WCC.(First Job after College)
The Russians introduced Case Neck annealing for the 7,62x54R ammo ( not practised by Gov’t or
Commercial makers of Military ammo ( ie, .30 cal M1906)

DocAV

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DocAV,
I asked this question before. To my knowledge, Western Cartridge Company made 7.62 x 54R in 1920 and again in 1940, but not during 1914-1918. The packet I showed here is most certainly from 1920. If you have information to the contrary, please post it.

Pictures of WESTERN 7.62 x 54R headstamps.

WESTERN 7.62 HS 10001-modified

WESTERN 7.62 HS 30001-modified

WESTERN 20 is Berdan primed.

WESTERN 7.62 SECTIONED0001

Randy

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Randy, refer to " Ammunition Manufacture" by Frost, NRA Publications ( about 20 years ago)
for details of Tsarist Army Inspectors at WCC during WWI.

Doc AV

I once owned a copy, not anymore; I can view the book online so can you provide a specific page to view?

Here is the book link https://ia801603.us.archive.org/28/items/AmmunitionMakingNRAByG.Frost1990/Ammunition%20Making-NRA%20%20by%20G.%20Frost-(1990)%20_text.pdf

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Yes, Vlad,

See above. I can view the book. I am asking DocAV for a specific page number.

Randy

Randy, for what it’s worth, it’s mentioned in page p. 7: “The Czarist government had required that Western anneal the necks of the cases made for its use in World War I. After the war Western simply adopted the practice, now universal, for all bottleneck cartridges.

However, it’s not correct to affirm that case neck annealing was “not practised by Gov’t or Commercial makers of Military ammo ( ie, .30 cal M1906)”; Frankford Arsenal was well aware of its virtues long before the introduction of .30 Cal. bottlenecked cases. It was also used during the manufacture of the .30 Model 1903 cartridge case.

Regards,

Fede

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Fede,

Thank You. I have never seen Western made 7.62 x 54R with a 1914 to 1918 headstamp. Have you ?

If there were Russian inspectors at Western during WW1, what were they inspecting ?

Randy

Randy, see page 139 (bottom of right column) regarding Victor Crasnoff.

Thank You.