Unknown 7,62x54mmR projectile type.. Swedish produced


#1

Hi there, IAA forums!

I have recently acquired a 7,62x54mm round with a bullet type I am not able to identify.
The round is very light compared to regular FMJ loads, could it possibly be molybdenum coated aluminium, or maybe some sort of plastic short range training projectile?

As you see, its headstamp is CG 96, which I assume means it is a Carl Gustav (FFV) made cartridge, perhaps manufactured for the Finns?

There is some slight flaking, as seen here…

Please excuse the sub-par quality of the photographs, they were taken hastily just now with my mobile phone…

Thanks in advance;
tennsats / Ole


#2

Tennsast, I can not answer your question on the projectile (which is interesting if an original load) but the cartridges were initially made for Soviet PKM or PKT machine guns which were in Swedish service for a short time.


#3

Very interesting information- thank you! Am I right in believing that the PK/M/T you refer to were the vehicle mounted Ksp-95s? It must be 7,62x54mmR, then, not x53mmR… my bad. :-)

I sadly do not know whether it is factory load, I bought the round from a fellow collector whose field is not modern cartridges… he had no clues about the former history of it.

tennsats / Ole


#4

I am unaware of the Swedish model designation. 7.62x54R is correct of course.
Sweden bought Soviet made tracked MTLB artillery tractors from Germany (former GDR stocks) which had the PKs installed. They used them for a few years and phased them out and scrapped them (to what I know).
I was actually surprised that Sweden kept the machine guns and even started making ammunition for them (including AP and tracers).


#5

It is interesting for sure, in my simple mind it would make more sense for them to mount their own FN MAG copy onto them (Ksp-58) rather than those PKs… I imagine it would be much easier to deal with in terms of logistics? Then again, we guys here in Norway decided to keep the FN MAGs on the Leo 2s we bought from the Netherlenders, rather than use our own MG3s… we Scandinavians are odd that way ;-)

tennsats / Ole


#6

The issue on the MTLB might have been different as the PK was installed inside a small turret. Changing such things and embedding a new weapon, making it gas tight etc. (goven the new gun will fit at all) might be a small adventure and could cost more than just making new cartridges.
Anyhow it is odd how some procurement offices do work.
It is not on ammo but I know of a case where the German military payed additional money to get a servo steering removed from passenger busses. Reason: servo steering was not in the request for proposal! So one manufacturer won the tender and had to remove the servos before delivery! I would have issued life sentences for all involved!


#7

The cartridge has a solid steel projectile. As I understand, from information given by people at Nammo Vanäsverken in Sweden, by whom the cartridges were produced, they are for some sort of barrel testing. It is not for combat or training use.

It is correct that the Swedes aquired East German armoured vehicles which were equipped with PKM machine guns. So production of 7,62x54R Caliber ammunition, as it was called in Sweden, started in 1995. Known headstamps are CG 95, CG96 and CG00.

These are the cartridge types that I am aware of:

.
Headstamps are, from left: CG 95, CG 96, CG 96 CG 96 and CG 00.

morten


#8

[quote=“EOD”]The issue on the MTLB might have been different as the PK was installed inside a small turret. Changing such things and embedding a new weapon, making it gas tight etc. (goven the new gun will fit at all) might be a small adventure and could cost more than just making new cartridges.
Anyhow it is odd how some procurement offices do work.
It is not on ammo but I know of a case where the German military payed additional money to get a servo steering removed from passenger busses. Reason: servo steering was not in the request for proposal! So one manufacturer won the tender and had to remove the servos before delivery! I would have issued life sentences for all involved![/quote]

I see; I am honestly not at all familiar with the MTLB. I assumed that the PKs had been mounted on their usual tripod/pintle mount manned by exposed crewmen, but it seems as the machine guns were actually solenoid triggered PKTs, can you confirm/disprove this?

Thank you again for a very good explanation.

Hah, darned Bundeswehr! I sure wonder what the Norwegian army will strip out of our new Rheinmetall MAN trucks at arrival… maybe they’ll kick out the servo and permanently disable the ABS, so that those that have driven our Geländewagens will feel at home in them ;-)

[quote=“morten”]The cartridge has a solid steel projectile. As I understand, from information given by people at Nammo Vanäsverken in Sweden, by whom the cartridges were produced, they are for some sort of barrel testing. It is not for combat or training use.

It is correct that the Swedes aquired East German armoured vehicles which were equipped with PKM machine guns. So production of 7,62x54R Caliber ammunition, as it was called in Sweden, started in 1995. Known headstamps are CG 95, CG96 and CG00.

These are the cartridge types that I am aware of:

.
Headstamps are, from left: CG 95, CG 96, CG 96 CG 96 and CG 00.

morten[/quote]

Ah, thank you very much for clearing that up. Do you happen to know how many were made of each type?

I’ll have to look out for the red wooden blank round; I currently have the 7,62x51mm and 6,5x55mm variants of it.
Going through my modest 53mmR and 54mmR collection I found a 96-made white tip round like the one you posted, along with one from Lapua.

Takk igjen :-)

tennsats / Ole

EDIT:
Copy-pasted from Wikipedia:
Pbv 401 (pansarbandvagn) - modified former East-German vehicle with 7.62 mm machine guns Ksp 95 and Ksp 58..

Looks like the Swedes used both PK/Ts and FN MAGs on them.


#9

Hi!
The designation for the ammo on the picture is:
Ball ammo = 7,62mm sk ptr 95 prj
Tracer (white tip) = 7,62 mm sk ptr 95 slprj (slprj = SpårLjusProjektil)
AP (Black tip) = 7,62 mm sk ptr 95 pprj (pprj = PansarProjektil)
Barreltest= Don’t know :(
Blank (Red wood) = 7,62 mm lös ptr 95 (lös = blank)

A box of 7,62mm sk ptr 95 prj

The KSP95 is no longer in use here in Sweden.


#10

Interesting box! Odd it has no lot number on.

Yes, the machine guns were phased out together with the MTLBs as there was no other carrier system for them nor did it make any sense to keep these weapons.

I still have not figured how the Swedish made belts do look like. Anybody here wo could provide an image?

Here some little from a Swedish manual. I could not find the AP there for some reason.


#11

For a better understanding to those less into vehicles, here an image of the Vehicle in question. Here a version without gun mount. The MTLB was designated Pbv 401 in Sweden:
forum.valka.cz/files/veh_swekfor … v_124.jpeg

Here more of detailed images of the vehicle with the turret and more details:
plasticwarfare.se/2002/07/pa … h-service/


#12

Tack så mycket, eken!

I presume “sk ptr” stands for skarp patron? Thank you for sharing that information, very much appreciated.

EOD, maybe the lot no. is on the top of the box flap?
That’s a neat picture from the manual, maybe I’ll have to look out after one of those ammo boxes from now on… :-)

tennsats / Ole


#13

This is the first box I see so I have no idea as for the markings there but compared to other Swedish boxes this one looks unusual.
It is time to find such a box.


#14

Nice Box, theoak.
I got this empty box from a Swedish friend some years ago. No idea what was in it.


#15

This one is interesting as per the markings it is not for the Swedish Armed Forces.


#16

The term ‘cartridge’ also doesn’t sound Swedish.
;-)


#17

I believe that is possible that the unknown cartridge was loaded with a Jakobsson solid soft steel projectile, which in the 90’s was also tried in AK 4 rifles and Ksp 58 machine guns in 7.62x51 caliber. It was designed as an environmentally safe projectile covered with different types of coatings to decrease barrel erosion.

Maybe someone can contact a friend in Nammo to confirm if this information is correct or not.